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2011 SX Forte5 2.4l P0017

15K views 22 replies 7 participants last post by  kiaguy007 
#1 ·
Greetings folks. Hoping I can get a little assistance, or at least offer some help to the next person to do a search for a P0017 ODBII Code.

Culprit is my 2011 Forte SX (Hatchback). Its got 65k on the Odo, Oil changes have been done fairly regularly full Synthetic at 5-6k intervals. Although this last oil change before the CEL came on might of been a little higher as I forgot to write down my mileage last time. Car is stock. K&N Air Filter, 60% Highway Miles, 40% City and usually see about 26-27mpg combined mileage.

Chain of events. Due for an oil change so I went to walmart. My regular Purilator Oil filter was out of stock so against my better judgement, I grabbed the Fram ExtraGuard. thinking it would be better than the base junk fram.

Oil was Mobil 1 5w20 Full Synthetic.

I do the oil change like Normal, start the car up and everything seems normal. Quick test drive. Pull it back home, Double check the oil level and everything looks perfect.

Next day, I start the car, CEL comes on. Car seems to be running fine. I pull the codes and get a 0017. I clear the code and head to work.
2 days go by. no more code. just when I thought it was a fluke code, I get the CEL after a startup. drat.

I got to work, and did some googleing on the problem. A few "Dirty oil" threads. a few Picky oil filter Threads, I decide to pick up a new Oil filter on the way home and get that Fram off the engine.

Stop at the local AutoZone and pick up a Bosch Premium Filter (Appears to be the same as the Purolator I generally use)

Get home, Spin the Fram off, Spin the new filter on. Start the car up, recheck and top off oil. Hook scanner back up and see the 0017 still there so I do a Code reset.

Code goes away again.

Car seems to be running just fine at this point. power seems fine, engine seems smooth.

I drive for three days and tonight, as I started up the car it seemed to stutter just a smidge as it fired up and the CEL came back on.

Shut the car back down and attached my scanner. 0017 was back. I leave the scanner on for the drive home. Power seemed to be down a bit, but certainly not crippled.

I was trained as a Mechanic/Technician in the early 90's so I know my way around an engine but I dont work in the field anymore, but I am very comfortable working on my car myself.

Seems a trip to the dealer is going to cost me at least $200 so I figured I'd order the suspect Sensors and swap em myself and post a thread here before trying that.

Ordered a Cam Position Sensor, a Crank Position Sensor and the CVVT Solenoid. All three should be here Saturday and cost me $150 delivered and looks like all three are pretty easy to get to.

Im suspecting the CVVT Solenoid since it came on just after an oil change. Maybe something loosened up at the change and got lodged in the solenoid?

I guess My questions at this point is....

Does my troubleshooting and plan of action seem reasonable? Am I missing anything?

Does anyone think trying a OEM oil filter would net a better result than the Bosch?



Thanks Folks.
http://www.kia-forums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1485313
 
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#2 ·
Found this through a quick Google search:

General Description

The CVVT (Continuously Variable Valve Timing) system is installed to the chain sprocket of the camshafts. This system controls the camshaft to provide the optimal valve timing for whole driving condition. The PCM controls the Oil Control Valve (OCV), based on the signals output from air flow, throttle position and engine coolant temperature. The CVVT controller regulates the camshaft angle using oil pressure through the OCV. As result, the relative position between the camshaft and the crankshaft becomes optimal, and the engine torque improves, fuel economy improves, exhaust emissions decrease under overall driving conditions.

DTC Description

This diagnosis checks the camshaft position plausibility whether the expected range plus some margin is not violated that might be caused by a wrong engine repair, or a chain/belt misalignment. DTC P0017 is set when actual camshaft position is too much retarded or advanced than full retard position or full advance position. To continue the adjustment in such case could lead to a damage of the engine by hitting the valves with the piston.


My bet is that it's the solenoid. I think if the cam or crank position sensors went, the engine would either not run or run very poorly. It does seem to be oil related and had something to do with the oil change.
 
#3 ·
Better to try and diagnose instead of just hanging on parts. The oil control valve (CVVT solenoid) can (and should) be tested outside of the vehicle. There's been a bit of a history on P0017 and other timing-related codes on our Fortes, and it's not been good news so far.

The folks that have followed up on their issues have all been timing chain-related problems, not bad sensors or oil control valves. Check the oil control valve first and keep your fingers crossed it's just that.

IMO (based on other reports), replacing the cam/crank sensors will be a waste of money and time, but you can try them if that's what you want to do. If none of that solves the problem, you probably will need to pull the valve cover, in order to find out if the timing chain has stretched.
 
#13 ·
The folks that have followed up on their issues have all been timing chain-related problems.
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but does anyone have any good information related to preventing or at least slowing the timing chain from stretching?

What I've found says to just use the correct viscosity of oil, and OEM filters (or at least filters with a good anti-drain back valve). There have also been TSB's and other things issued from other car manufacturers where they lowered the oil change interval.

I had wondered why KIA would be so picky about the OEM filter with their cars, I always figured it was a money thing (probably partially is), but this could be a good reason too.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I reset the light again this this morning before heading to work. A couple romps on the accelerator felt just fine considering its 80+ and high humidity around me right now. 65k miles.. Mostly highway with no absue seems unlikely to stretch a chain.. But I hear you folks and wont rule it out. Most of the significant issues Ive read about regarding timing chain tensioners and stretching have been 2006-2009 it seems. Havnet seem many 2010+ so I hoped Hyundai had figured something out by the time I got mine.


I'll plan on pulling the CVVT Solenoid Saturday and hold off on the cam and crank sensor. anyone have the test procedure for that?

Thanks for the advice so far folks.
 
#6 ·
...I hoped Hyundai had figured something out by the time I got mine. ..
I've seen multiple reports of 201* Kia stretched chains, including a couple jumping time. With these forums being so inactive and unresponsive, it's impossible to know (at this time) if this is the start of a systemic pattern, or just a few oddball problems. And I've yet to see anything that reliably confirms the root cause of these Hyundai/Kia Theta stretched chains. Both tensioner and guides have been mentioned, but nothing to confirm what the actual failing part is. OTOH it probably doesn't matter, because it is what it is, and all timing chain parts should be replaced in the case of any issue involving the chain.


... I'll plan on pulling the CVVT Solenoid Saturday and hold off on the cam and crank sensor. anyone have the test procedure for that? ...
The resistance of the OCV should be 6.9-7.9Ω at 68F. And you can also apply 12V, which will (if ok) cause it to move. Your Forte is ULEV, with just CVVT on the intake, correct? SULEV equipped vehicles have CVVT/OCV on the exhaust side as well. If you're not sure, there's a sticker inside the hood that will have either SULEV or ULEV.

I hope the problem with your vehicle is the OCV, but don't have much confidence about that because I've yet to see someone post a confirmation of that being the solution to one of the timing-related codes. Fingers crossed that you'll find and fix a bad OCV! (because the alternative will probably not be nearly that friendly).
 
#12 ·
A short simple explanation from the interwebs:

Mechanics often call timing chain wear, stretch. Stretch is technically the wrong term for what occurs. The links of the timing chain do not stretch, but wear causes each link to move apart.
 
#8 · (Edited)
More strangeness. Rainy and damp today here. Light was off and car was running OK, but felt a little off. I stopped for a few minutes and when I started the car back up, it stuttered a bit and light came back on. <br />
<br />
Seems like I notice the most issues after a warm start. Been sitting for a few hours again so we'll see how it's doing now.

Edit : ulev it is. Intake only.

Edit 2:

It just occured to me that I bought this new and it seems Kia has a 10y/100k powertrain warranty.. Wouldnt the timing chain and associated parts be covered under the powertrain warranty? Maybe I'll just drop it off at the dealer monday.
 
#10 · (Edited)
....It just occured to me that I bought this new and it seems Kia has a 10y/100k powertrain warranty.. Wouldnt the timing chain and associated parts be covered under the powertrain warranty? Maybe I'll just drop it off at the dealer monday.
Stretched timing chain would be covered, but here's some important info related to coverage of your vehicle under that warranty.

1) They will almost definitely at some point ask you for COMPLETE oil change records. You will need to give them the receipt for every oil change, and all of those OCIs need to have been done within the 7.5K mile interval. If you're not able to produce those records, then it's highly likely they will try to deny a warranty claim.

2) The aftermarket oil filters MIGHT be a problem.

3) The aftermarket air MIGHT be a problem. Best choice would be to reinstall the factory parts before taking it in.

The last 2 items are highly dependent on the individual stealership. Some will do anything possible to deny warrany claims, others not so much. There is no corporate Kia policy on this (that I'm aware of).

Bottom line is you want to make certain that they notify you of any charges, IN ADVANCE of the work being done. I don't go to stealerships myself, but have read reports from others saying that they pay a diagnostic fee up-front, and only get that reimbursed if warranty coverage applies. Don't know if that's typical, or if yours has that same policy.
 
#9 ·
I've got 190,000kms (118,000 miles) on my koup, and have recently developed a clatter on start. No engine codes thrown yet...., but I suspect a stretched timing chain. It kind of sounds like what the F150 ecoboost v6 motors sound like on startup with stretched chains....
As for replacing the cam sensor, I don't think that would be the root cause of your problem. I had mine replaced, but my symptom was that I was intermittently unable to drive over a certain speed/rpm.
 
#11 ·
Well, after a day+ of poking around my engine, seems the Timing is jumping dramatically. they could set the timing, turn it over, then check it again and it would be way off...

They did ask for my oil change records. unfortunately, I'm terrible at hanging onto receipts. Thankfully, after going over the engine and seeing the condition it was in, they talked to Kia and the warranty repair was approved.

so now we wait for an engine. yup. they want to change out the entire engine, not just put a new chain on it. apparently, there's no long blocks in the states so they have a short block on the way and we need to hope the valves didnt get hit.

I'll update as things progress, but as of right now, things are progressing and I'm very happy with Kia and my dealer.
 
#15 ·
.... Thankfully, after going over the engine and seeing the condition it was in, they talked to Kia and the warranty repair was approved. ....
You are indeed VERY fortunate to have such a reasonable dealer - kudos to them for taking the high road! And thank you for following up with your outcome. So many people post problems like this and are never heard from again. It can be a big help to the rest of us to learn how these things turn out.

However, I have no understanding of why they're going the short block route. It would be so much less work for them to just replace the timing chain components than it will be to pull the engine, remove and reinstall the head, and then reinstall the engine. Well, that of course is not your problem, because they have to deliver an engine that functions for the remainder of the warranty. I'd say you're going to come out of this looking golden!
 
#18 ·
It may be a good idea to add the timing chain on these engines in as part of a routine maintenance program. I wouldn't know what mileage to start at though. Every 50,000 miles, 75,000 miles? Also keep a good watch on the oil levels, which I do anyway. Luckily I've never seen ours use a drop yet. I'll stick with synthetic oil, and OE filter (can find good deals on pack of 10 on Amazon sometimes). I may go back to a 5000 mile oci instead of 7500 though.

Glad the OP had success with getting things fixed.
 
#20 ·
It may be a good idea to add the timing chain on these engines in as part of a routine maintenance program.....
Nothing routine about replacing the timing chain components, so I'll do it only if there's evidence that the chain has stretched. And for those who don't DIY, I'd estimate this job at 1K+ if done at a stealership.

However, one good compromise would be to remove the valve cover and replace the gasket after a few years. Then, while the cover is off, the chain can be checked for excessive play or abnormal wear marks on the pulleys. And that would be 2 birds with one stone, because VC gaskets generally harden up and begin to leak over time, and will need to be replaced anyway. The more I think about that idea, the more I like it, and will definitely do it with around 1K still left to go on the powertrain warranty.
 
#21 ·
Final Update.

Got a call from the dealer last Monday. the got a new Long Block to swap in and they should be ready by the end of the week.

On Tuesday I got a call that when the tech was swapping the engine he noticed that my downpipe was cracked and that they could replace it for $450.

This seemed very strange to me as I had noticed no unusual exhaust noise prior to bringing the car in to them I told them I wasnt about to pay $450 for a downpipe and we'll just have to see whats up when I pick the car up.
I did have them do a trans service on the car since I had not done that yet and at 65k miles, it was time.

Thursday I got the call that my car was all ready to be picked up. he made some comments about the exhaust noise and that it could come and go based on blah blah blah..

When I get there to pick up my car around 5:15 (They are open till 6) the service manager wasn't there so I just got to deal with a tech and dealership cashier.

Turned in my loaner, Paid the $220 for the Trans service, and got my keys.....

Fired it up and.. Oh My... I was greeted with the alarming noise of a 17year olds super bad ass vtec! Complete with Popping backfire!

I most definitely would of noticed that before I brought it in...

So obviously, someone didn't disconnect that pipe or it got caught up when they yanked the engine.

I went back inside and spoke to the tech that helped me, but no manager was there. I was told I would get a call the next day.

Of course, I got no call and at this point I was not about to chase them. I brought the car over to my local exhaust guy and for $114 they replaced the downpipe/Flexpipe for me.
I'll send the bill to the dealer, but doubt I'll hear anything and its really not worth my time at this point.

Now that I can hear my engine over the exhaust noise, I can definitely say there was some engine noise prior to the failure. The engine was ticking quite a bit compared to my now quiet and silky smooth idle. something I guess I didnt pay much mind to over the course of 65k miles....

I'll be switching back to Synthetic once I get 1500 miles on this new engine but I will stock up on some Hyundai oil filters rather than my usual Bosch premiums.

Going over my paperwork, it seems I now have a Sportage engine as well. Looks like they had to swap an oil cooler and thermostat housing from my old engine.

Bottom line. Got a new Engine, Transmission Service, and flexpipe for about $500 all said and done. Cant complain too much.
 
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