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2010 Koup Not Turning Over

24K views 40 replies 9 participants last post by  tc0566 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey all,


My 2010 Koup SX is not turning over. Just started doing this yesterday morning. Was working fine the day before. I DID notice that day though, on the drive to work, I was on the highway doing 70 and all my gauges quickly dropped and then went back to normal (there was no impact on the driving, just the gauges). I think it did this a few times weeks/months ago too (always just thought I was crazy seeing it out of my peripheral).


So yeah, I knew my battery needed changing (200CCA), so I went ahead and changed it, no dice.


I also noticed that I cannot turn on the headlights or highbeams OR seat warmers when in the ACC/RUN position. The windows also don't work (which I know 100% is not normal).


I checked every single fuse + swapped the relays for START (I think it was called) and Blower.


Also thought it could be the switch on the clutch, but that wouldn't explain the not being able to turn on the lights/seat warmers/windows.



Anybody got any ideas? Maybe a relay or something? Really hoping it's not the BCM or ECU or some expensive thing like that.
 
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#4 ·
I forgot that the numbers I used are from a wiring diagram, and aren't useful without the orientation. The actual numbers stamped on the underside of the relay are easier to use, just make sure you match each pin number on the relay to the corresponding female slot it goes into, because it's those slots that are used for this testing, not the pins on the relay.

So you need to test pin #30 for power with the key out, and pin #85 for power with the key at start. To test them, set a multimeter on the low range (i.e. 20 volts). Touch one meter lead to the relay slot you're testing, and the other to the negative battery terminal. If your meter lead can't make contact with the metal slot, use wire such as a paper clip to get down the slot and then touch the meter lead to the bridge wire. Battery voltage (around 12.5V) is what your looking to see.

To jump the relay, use a piece of around 14 gauge solid insulated wire, and briefly touch the wire ends to pin slots #30 to #87 , which should cause the starter to spin (no key needed). Don't force the wire into the slots if it doesn't slide in easily (file the wire down to fit). Depending on the results, additional testing may be required, but you want to start with those tests first.
 
#5 ·
I can't help much with your no start, but I will mention that I had to have my starter rebuilt at around 65k miles after it started to work intermittently. Regarding your gauges dropping, this is normal behavior based on my previous 2011 and current 2015 SX. They will very briefly drop and come back up at seemingly random times. I'm not sure what causes it, but it never gets worse and it doesn't happen often. I don't believe it's related to your current problem
 
#6 ·
Thanks for all this detailed, step by step info @kiaguy007 I really appreciate it.

I did all the tests and got no results for anything... I checked the pins you specified with key in/out. I then went and checked all 4 pins with key in or out, and nothing is showing up on my multimeter. Also, jumping those 2 pins with key in or out did absolutely nothing either. :( I didn't have a solid 14 gauge wire, but I had pretty heavy duty braided amplifier (10-12 gauge) wire hanging around that I used.

I'm assuming the results of this test are bad :(

Do you have anything else I can try?



I'm still finding it very weird that the heated seats, windows, blower/fan, headlights/highbeams don't work in the RUN position.


Thanks @Walpole5 for confirming I'm not crazy and the gauges dropping is not a big deal. :D I didn't think it was related either, since it's been doing it once in a while since I got the car, but just coincidence that it happens on the day of this problem.
 
#7 ·
... I'm assuming the results of this test are bad ....
Not necessarily, but that depends on what the actual problem is.

First off, I wasn't expecting the no power condition at pin #30 of the starter relay, because that's very rarely the case. So I suggest doing a quick double-check of that first. First confirm that your meter shows around 12.5 volts, when probing the battery terminals. Then take the lead off the positive battery terminal, and touch it to starter relay pin slot #30 , just like you did the first time, making certain that the meter probe is making contact with the metal inside of the #30 slot.

If there is really no voltage reading at starter relay #30 , then you need to next check the multifuse, which is located at the very front of the fuse box (fastened with 2 nuts). I did see that you checked the fuses, but no power at the #30 relay pin reduces the root cause to very possibilities, with the fuse automatically being the primary suspect.

Check all of the copper fuse links, which are visible in the front window, looking for broken links. The fuse which protects the starter circuit is IGN2, which is the second link from the right side of the multifuse. If the multifuse appears to be ok, then check for power with your meter at the metal connector on each side (underneath the nuts).
 
#8 ·
I checked my multimeter with the battery, and it's giving me 12.58V, then I moved the positive into the pin slot for the relay, and nothing. I tried all 4 again, nothing. For the hell of it, I pulled the relay beside it, which is for the Blower I believe, and checked a random pin slot; it immediately showed me 12.6V.


I don't think I have the multifuse that you're talking about. I've attached a picture of what my fuse boxes look like. The copper fuses with the windows look ok to me, the metal circle on the top doesn't appear to be broken.


I'm very interested in the multifuse now... I didn't see any fuses held down by nuts.





Thanks again for your suggestions and ideas, I really appreciate it.
 

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#9 ·
....The copper fuses with the windows look ok to me, ...
That's the multifuse - multiple copper fuses in a integrated unit

.... I'm very interested in the multifuse now... I didn't see any fuses held down by nuts. ....
Looking at your picture #3 of the fuse box, in each of the lower corners, there are threaded posts with nuts on them. If you use your meter to probe the plate beneath the nuts to the negative battery terminal, there should be 12.6 volts at each of them.
 
#13 ·
I couldn't wait, I went out and checked it. It looks fine to me :( I can remove it and look at it closer tomorrow, but I can see it pretty well in the car and all fuses are intact. I totally did not see all those fuses there before. :D


I'm wondering if I should throw a new fuse box at it or get it towed to Kia.
 
#14 ·
Definitely remove the multifuse and examine it carefully. If you believe the multifuse is ok, then yes, try replacing the fuse box. If you wanted to confirm the previous testing, you could do a continuity test from the IGN2 fuse slot to starter relay #30 , which should show no continuity.

Here's one from a group of used boxes, or you could get a new, empty one for around $60 shipped.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kia-Forte-...:eAcAAOSwR7xcueLc:sc:USPSPriority!01068!US!-1

AFA having it towed to Kia, that's obviously your call. I'd guess the bill from Kia for this repair would be somewhere in the $400-500 range. However, I've been too low on some of my repair bill guesses before.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Definitely remove the multifuse and examine it carefully. If you believe the multifuse is ok, then yes, try replacing the fuse box. If you wanted to confirm the previous testing, you could do a continuity test from the IGN2 fuse slot to starter relay #30 , which should show no continuity.

Here's one from a group of used boxes, or you could get a new, empty one for around $60 shipped.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kia-Forte-Fuse-Box-Relay-Junction-Panel-Block-2010-2011-2012-2013-10-11-12-13/273813653220?fits=Year%3A2011%7CModel%3AForte%7CMake%3AKia&hash=item3fc090c6e4:g:eAcAAOSwR7xcueLc:sc:USPSPriority!01068!US!-1

AFA having it towed to Kia, that's obviously your call. I'd guess the bill from Kia for this repair would be somewhere in the $400-500 range. However, I've been too low on some of my repair bill guesses before.

I did a lot of browsing the web today, and I'm going to go ahead and swap the fuse box tomorrow. I found a junkyard with a few for sale. They're asking $125. It's expensive, but then again everything in Canada is expensive. I'm gonna ask first if I can bring it back if it doesn't solve my problem.


I do have a bit of hope for this though. I found a post from 2015 on here of a guy having the same issue (very similar symptoms), and Kia first replaced the starter which did nothing. They then replaced the fuse box. You actually posted in that thread :D https://www.forteforums.com/forums/sedan-general-discussion/72258-electrical-issues.html
It's too bad he never confirmed which box it was. Googling junction box shows more images for the in-car one that the under hood one. However if I search the part # on the cover (91941-1m020), I get "COVER-JUNCTION box" so that's reassuring. I don't see any fuses/relays for headlights, power windows, or heated seats (which all aren't working) in the under-hood fuse box. Could the issue still come from there?



I'll go get the fuse box on my lunch hour then replace it when I get home after work.


I'll post back with the results.
 
#15 ·
Do they have the main fuse, like 40 A or 100 A on the positive side?
 
#16 ·
There's nothing like a main fuse in the first gen (at least none that they've documented anyway). The 125A alternator fuse might possibly serve that purpose under certain conditions by (eventually) killing all power, but they probably didn't plan for it to provide that functionality.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Glad to read it's fixed and back on the road! The arrow in your pic is actually pointing to the IGN2 fuse, which is the one that protects the starter circuit. And that makes sense, because it was the starter circuit that was dead. The ALT is the big 125A fuse just to the left of IGN2.

One thing that's important for you to keep in mind is that fuses don't normally blow without an underlying reason. And in this case the red flag would be the starter motor. It's possible that the starter motor is struggling and pulling extra current because it's beginning to fail, and if the draw gets to around 30 amps, then the IGN2 fuse blows. I think some of the auto parts stores will test starters for free, although I don't know if that's also being done where you live in Canada. In any case, I recommend getting your vehicle's starter tested in the near future.
 
#21 ·
Glad to read it's fixed and back on the road! The arrow in your pic is actually pointing to the IGN2 fuse, which is the one that protects the starter circuit. And that makes sense, because it was the starter circuit that was dead. The ALT is the big 125A fuse just to the left of IGN2.

One thing that's important for you to keep in mind is that fuses don't normally blow without an underlying reason. And in this case the red flag would be the starter motor. It's possible that the starter motor is struggling and pulling extra current because it's beginning to fail, and if the draw gets to around 30 amps, then the IGN2 fuse blows. I think some of the auto parts stores will test alts for free, although I don't know if that's also being done where you live in Canada. In any case, I recommend getting your vehicle's alt tested in the near future.

Ah yeah, makes more sense that it's IGN 2. I was counting 3 from the right as per the diagram, but I see now there's a blank square, so technically ALT is the 4th from the right, not the third.


Yeah there's usually an underlying problem. :( I hope the car starts tomorrow morning. :D You said the problem is most likely the starter motor, but to have my alternator tested. Having it tested will let me know if my starter motor is on its last legs? I will need to replace the starter but not the alternator? I've never had an alternator tested before, so I don't know what results to expect.



I'll have to pay to get it tested. Nothing in Canada is free (well except for healthcare :biggrin2:)


Thanks again!
 
#25 ·
So after that first morning (Thursday) of stalling at each red light, the car ran a bit better on the drive home from work. Still idling weird but not stalling out. That night, I took off and cleaned the MAP sensor while having the battery disconnected for a few hours. Plugged it back in and it ran like crap again Friday morning, then "OK" on Friday's drive home.


It's still running weird (high idle, bouncing idle, surging while driving) with a CEL of course. Personally, cleaning sensors has NEVER worked for me (MAP/MAF, IACV, EGR, etc), so I think I'll just buy a brand new one.


I do find it really weird that this problem happened after the battery install/fuse issue. However, previously my car would sometimes start and then stall, and be difficult to restart and then run weird. So maybe the MAP sensor has been intermittently going out for a while. I've noticed a lack of power the last few weeks/months too, so maybe a new MAP will help with that as well.


I also ordered a new multi fuse to keep in my glovebox just in case. :D
 
#26 ·
.... However, previously my car would sometimes start and then stall, and be difficult to restart and then run weird. ....
So it would seem that the IGN2 fuse blowing had nothing to do with the performance issues. Before ordering a new MAP sensor, carefully check the vacuum tubing connected to it for cracks. If that's ok, then yes you might as well just buy a new one, because you would need a vacuum pump in order to test a MAP. That said, if you had a realtime data stream reader, we could compare MAP sensor readings, which would go a long way to confirming that the sensor on your vehicle is going bad.
 
#32 ·
The latest vid that you posted is interesting, and also a bit puzzling at the same time. The fuel trims are MUCH better than the were previously (very good actually), and reflects the fact that it was running quite a bit better at the time that vid was taken. However, the MAP readings are actually lower than in the prior vids, which is odd. I would have expected that eliminating the previous lean condition should show higher MAP readings, not lower. However, although the latest readings are around 10% lower than my 2011, I believe that they are still within the acceptable range. But these puzzling readings does cause me to rethink the MAP sensor possibly going bad, and I'd now put it back in the mix as a potential suspect (but I wouldn't hang on a new one just yet).

Do you recall if the performance improved right after you examined the MAP vacuum hose (and any other hoses as well)? If so, I'd recommend pushing all of those hoses around again, with the engine idling. It could be possible that the position of a very small crack in the hose was closed up by moving it around, so you'll want to confirm that either way. If there's any change in how the engine runs while moving a hose, you'll have the answer.

The other thing that come to mind for the set of symptoms you're describing is a possible sporadic fuel pressure issue. Unfortunately, there's no Schrader valve, so checking fuel pressure is a bit of a PITA. But if you're up for some extra effort, then getting a baseline fuel pressure reading while it's running well would be a nice thing to have, in order to compare it to the pressure if it starts running poorly again.

The other thing that might possibly be in play is a problem in the evap system, but that's somewhat of a long shot. There was a guy last year who reported a stuck evap vent valve, but his symptoms were quite a bit different than what you're reporting. There are of course a few other common maintenance/performance items such as plugs, air filter, O2 sensors, dirty throttle body, etc; but IMO none of those are likely to cause stalling/restart problems on a well running vehicle, as yours is now.

One other thing that might be helpful is another vid just like your most recent one, if it starts running poorly again like it did before. It would be good to keep your reader ready for action, in order to be able to record the data as soon as the performance goes downhill.
 
#33 ·
I’m having the same issue and i have changed my battery starter fuel pump camshaft position sensor and just checked last night and half of my fuses don’t have power going to them. Fuel pump won’t turn on. I have no spark. I don’t know what else to do. Can someone please help me
 
#41 · (Edited)
If it's map sensor Code, it's a well known issue. After it's driven a bit the idle goes back to normal, if it's the map sensor code and the sensor isn't actually bad. My 2011 would throw the code every time you disconnected battery. Hold idle at 1500 rpm a couple minutes and then drive it around the block and it would go back to driving normally.
 
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