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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i figured i'd start this instead of continuing the conversation in the TK thread


there are alot of things to considering about brake fade as well as styles of brakes

a quick google search will give you a quick diorama of the situation but what it comes down to are some factors..

vent structure ( slanted or straight)

solid drilled slotted or drilled and sloted.

solid.. are good brakes however they're by no means the best.. they have MOST surface contact but generally dont have the greatest vent structures or anything

drilled.. are good for hard braking (track braking/ emergency braking and technically can stop marginally faster) HOWEVER less material does not equal cooling off quicker drilled brakes are more prone to warping and cracking they also generally eat pads and go through rotors more

also alot of drilled rotors (esp that you find for cheap) are typically not cast drilled they're generally solid rotors that have been actually had holes drilled in them.. which is NOT GOOD for the brake being as they create hot spots all over the brake which heats them and causes them to be more brittle also even in this case to have a "correct" drill the holes should be chamfered if they are not (and are sharp/ hard edged) they will tear apart your pad and provide even less braking ability

think of brakes as a heat sink .. the more surface area the more heat can be pulled away from the central heating object

slotted rotors generally provide the greatest balance of everything.. slotted rotors can be used for DD'ing as well as hard track use.. the reason the slots are there are to direct air/ heat out of the brake . they provide the most (aside from solid brakes) contact to the pad. these are the best of all worlds generally.. give you great braking as well as lasting brakes that dont have issues
 

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I hate brake fade its a real problem,
Looking at drilled rotors I can see how they may cause more wear and tear on brake pads if drilled wrong etc.
But brake pads are not that costly so even if thats true its not like the end of the world.
But on the other had a warped rotor is very bad news and the first time you ever have a car with this problem you'll never forget it so that would be costly to repalce drilled rotors often.

Other choice of course is bigger
Calipers and bigger rotors.. as mentioned in vid.

I'm thinking the drilled rotors are going to help cool rotors the quickest
and maybe thats why the rotors don't last long because they heat up and cool off so quick
just a theory of mine does not mean I'm exactly right ;)

better calipers and bigger rotors might be the most reliable upgrade.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I hate brake fade its a real problem,
Looking at drilled rotors I can see how they may cause more wear and tear on brake pads if drilled wrong etc.
But brake pads are not that costly so even if thats true its not like the end of the world.
But on the other had a warped rotor is very bad news and the first time you ever have a car with this problem you'll never forget it so that would be costly to repalce drilled rotors often.

Other choice of course is bigger
Calipers and bigger rotors.. as mentioned in vid.

I'm thinking the drilled rotors are going to help cool rotors the quickest
and maybe thats why the rotors don't last long because they heat up and cool off so quick
just a theory of mine does not mean I'm exactly right ;)

better calipers and bigger rotors might be the most reliable upgrade.
in theory yes thats basically what causes the warping and cracking .. however it's not really effectively cooling like you would think

bigger is better yes but what are the stock brake sizes on the forte?


also stainless steel brake lines well help the fade issue more then anything 90% of the time.

best thing usually is to get some slotted rotors.. good pads and ss brake lines .. cheapest / most effective route to better / more predictable and stable braking :)
 

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Here is my 2 cents on the brake issue, if we started another topic I apologize and will remove this post, but my thinking is this, drilled rotors WILL cool faster because there is more air flow around them, because they cool faster it reduces fading. As we all know the only way to stop your car is to remove the energy in the form of HEAT. However, with drilled rotors I believe STOPPING power would be lost because there is less area for the rotors and pads to contact,at least until the point where the rotors can get enough air flow around them to remove heat to make up for the loss in surface area. Slotted rotors, on the other hand have more stopping power because there is more area for contact, but would have more fading because there isnt drillings for air flow. I think playing with different drillings or slots finds that balance between keeping the rotors cool (to reduce fading) and having enough surface area to increase stopping power. I hope that makes sense? If not ignore me, it is all speculation anyway! ;)

Also of note, if you still go the speed limits you don't need the extra braking! but who does that???
 

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Hey we should have a vote on this dont you guys think?

shold be slotted vs drilled
which do you think cools better.:)

can we do that could be kinda fun to see the results on this
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Here is my 2 cents on the brake issue, if we started another topic I apologize and will remove this post, but my thinking is this, drilled rotors WILL cool faster because there is more air flow around them, because they cool faster it reduces fading. As we all know the only way to stop your car is to remove the energy in the form of HEAT. However, with drilled rotors I believe STOPPING power would be lost because there is less area for the rotors and pads to contact,at least until the point where the rotors can get enough air flow around them to remove heat to make up for the loss in surface area. Slotted rotors, on the other hand have more stopping power because there is more area for contact, but would have more fading because there isnt drillings for air flow. I think playing with different drillings or slots finds that balance between keeping the rotors cool (to reduce fading) and having enough surface area to increase stopping power. I hope that makes sense? If not ignore me, it is all speculation anyway! ;)

Also of note, if you still go the speed limits you don't need the extra braking! but who does that???

the slots in the brakes help direct air and help cool them.. remember "FADE" is not usually because of hot rotors.. there are many other reasons aside from heat.. prolonged hard braking will cause fade from heat ..however you shouldnt be in that situation if you are.. well then .. you're doing it wrong lol

"The fluid within the brake fluid boils and releases gases causing spongy braking as unlike fluids gases are compressible. The heat build up can adversely affect the friction and even cause warping or distortion of the brake components, so brake fade in these cases will still have a firm pedal but the conversion of momentum into heat cannot effectively happen so the car does not slow up. All cars are susceptible to brake fade but driver habits can be a major cause!

When you use your brakes you are converting the forward momentum of the car into heat. The heat will build up on the disks where it will be dissipated into the air. The pads will also get warm and this heat will also transfer along the pistons and calipers into the brake fluid and if water is present you are likely to experience brake fade as the water heats up and boils. The heat can also cause the brake hoses to expand a little reducing the hydraulic pressure even further."


those are other reason for brake fade..

also 1 bout of really hard braking would do it but generally that causes warp before fade.. unless it's hard braking spaced out (ie at the track i've experienced it .. but it goes away after the car totally cools so i'm willing to bet it's from boiling fluid or expanding lines)..
 

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and just to add to the whole brake debate

i've seen ads and articles about the stronger, tougher,more upppmh for your brakes.......

so does anyone have any real world experience w/changing out the brakelines w/the "better" ones?

all the ads/articles swear that you can instantly feel the brakes feel "better"

(slotted vs drilled- not having ever had either- the slot w/the inner layer w/the curved thingies- makes more sense- and thats the last of my science for today ")

well- not exactly the last of my science notes-
more like - discuss among us kinda notes-
nascar - just as an example- there are plenty of pictures showing seriously big air hoses running from front of the car to the braking system.


the rotors get hot, the calipers get hot, the brakelines get hot, and yes- the brake fluid gets hot.
(so why hasnt anyone figured out a "brake system coolant system" yet?)
;)

oh yeah- has any one here jumped up the size of their brake rotors yet?
(from what i've see- they are out there for the fortes)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
what is the stock size? if they're 12-13 in rotors in the front then new caliprs would be needed..

the ss/sc ss/tc and other performance cars run 12-13 " front brakes with 2-4 piston calipers and are fine on braking

brakelines help definitely

a in line cooler would be interesting ( like an oil cooler) that is something good to bring up ..

you can make brake ducts .. ( what i think would be awesome..) use something similar to the stock fog light housing with the fog light however have a hole on the inside and tunnel that to the brakes .. if i had a koup and some things I think i could it off rather easily.. that would be a GREAT way to cool off the brakes

also something to keep in mind pad composition can make just as much of a difference as anything else
 

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Although I don't consider myself an expert on brakes I would like to share my experience with brakes with you folks. I've been working with drums/rotors since 1976 on heavy equipment vehicles (buses). And pretty much they haven't changed (generally) much in operation. It's main job is to stop a vehicle or slow down to a safe speed. The other thing is noise, anytime you have two different material making contact, it will make noise. And that can be real distracting factor or worse uncomfortable to the human ear. That's why the drums/rotors are machined in a special way to bring down the noise to a minimal so that the human ear cannot pick it up. That's why it's recommended that you always have your drums/rotors machined when your doing a brake job on your ride. Otherwise several problems will arise. For example pulsating brake pedal, weak brakes, pulling while braking and that notorious noise (squeaking or worse vibrating noise). And the most over looked, getting grease or oil (even dirt) on a machined surface while installing your drum/rotor. Yes, this can be a major cause of noise also. Most drum/rotor are made of cast iron or cast steel, they have to be porous for cooling but in turn oil, dirt or grease can get into these tiny little holes and even shooting brake clean will not get it all out. They also clog the pores in the metal thus over heating may occur.
Unlike drum brakes, the disc pads are constantly touching the rotor so you still will have friction (minimum) at hand. This is for preventing foreign objects getting in between the rotor and pad, also displacing water more quickly so that your brakes will work more efficiently.
As for drilled or slotted rotors? This debate has been with us since the birth of the brake rotor. Originally the drilled rotor theory was born due to weight problems for racing. Back then cast iron was the only choice and you all know cast iron is heavy. But with modern technology in metal alloys, it seems the weight problem has been eliminated (well almost).
Slotted rotors, well I don't understand that, anytime you want to eliminate heat, fins are used to displace heat more efficiently.
I totally agree with elecblue06, an inline cooling system would be great but unfortunately science hasn't caught up with that yet (soon I hope). And if you want better brakes other than stock, the larger diameter is the way to go (the racing community has proven that).
A very good subject elecblue06, brakes are the most over looked unsung hero. A wise old man once said to me (a master brake specialist) *no matter how fast or slow you go, sooner or later you have to stop* :).
Brakes has been with us since the horse and wagon days, it's basic concept hasn't changed much since then (with the exception of the air brake). It's the most basic design in the vehicle to date but the most important piece of the whole puzzle.
I can go on and on but enough said (sometimes I talk/type too much) :p. I hope this information has helped bring some basic understanding to how brakes functions on a vehicle. If not I hope it made some interesting reading. Best Regards and Aloha :D
 

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For 90% of us going with larger standard discs will provide the best performance increase. Let's be realistic: you bought an economy car, and sure you might put a bit of this and that into it, but it's not as if you're going to be competing with Corvettes. You want more stopping power? Start with better pads and fluid. Then consider larger discs if that isn't enough for you.

Finally, if you just can't stop fast enough, look into slotted/drilled rotors based on your application. But I doubt any of us in this thread will ever get that far.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
this is more an issue because of the people looking to go turbo.. the need for braking increases exponentially I personally know about having a close to 300 whp car at the track and getting brake fade after 6 back to back runs.. it's NOT fun ..

those who are looking for more power should be looking for braking

like racing red said.. no matter how fast or slow you go sooner or later you have to stop..

i'd say brake ducts + upgraded pads rotors lines would be more then probably 75% of you guys will need till people start getting out of warranty
 

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this is more an issue because of the people looking to go turbo.. the need for braking increases exponentially I personally know about having a close to 300 whp car at the track and getting brake fade after 6 back to back runs.. it's NOT fun ..

those who are looking for more power should be looking for braking

like racing red said.. no matter how fast or slow you go sooner or later you have to stop..

i'd say brake ducts + upgraded pads rotors lines would be more then probably 75% of you guys will need till people start getting out of warranty
Listen, I don't want to sound like a douche here, but you need to keep things in context. In my life of tracking cars, which has included everything from 350whp MR2's to 400awhp Talons, I've never had to buy massive brakes to prevent fade. Typically, upgrading the disc size, pads, and fluid is all it takes to keep things under control.

As far as going turbo, we don't even have a kit that's available yet, let alone any data to suggest one way or the other. The brakes on the Forte are a decent size- I wouldn't be surprised if some pads solved 90% of people's issues with fade.

Your Saturn ION is a completely different story, as we're talking about two different cars on the quality spectrum.
 

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Listen, I don't want to sound like a douche here, but you need to keep things in context. In my life of tracking cars, which has included everything from 350whp MR2's to 400awhp Talons, I've never had to buy massive brakes to prevent fade. Typically, upgrading the disc size, pads, and fluid is all it takes to keep things under control.

As far as going turbo, we don't even have a kit that's available yet, let alone any data to suggest one way or the other. The brakes on the Forte are a decent size- I wouldn't be surprised if some pads solved 90% of people's issues with fade.

Your Saturn ION is a completely different story, as we're talking about two different cars on the quality spectrum.
erm... turbokits already have a turbo out several weeks back?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Listen, I don't want to sound like a douche here, but you need to keep things in context. In my life of tracking cars, which has included everything from 350whp MR2's to 400awhp Talons, I've never had to buy massive brakes to prevent fade. Typically, upgrading the disc size, pads, and fluid is all it takes to keep things under control.

As far as going turbo, we don't even have a kit that's available yet, let alone any data to suggest one way or the other. The brakes on the Forte are a decent size- I wouldn't be surprised if some pads solved 90% of people's issues with fade.

Your Saturn ION is a completely different story, as we're talking about two different cars on the quality spectrum.
well congratulations you sounded like a douche :D I never was insinuating that a bigger brake upgrade was a must have like i said upgrading rotors pads and lines will do enough for most peoples issues.. it's really depending on stock brake size and stock pad size stock caliper setup.. as i've asked for that numerous times to help on a more on the brake issue i would never say that a massive brake upgrade would be best.. cuz those are usually 1k or so for a BBK

i'm trying to keep things in context.. and the most cost effective.. my issues would probably be fixed by getting new brake lines .. as mine have 83k on them with numerous track runs lol

also my car has very little stock parts on it .. so my car has very little to do with it lol
 

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erm... turbokits already have a turbo out several weeks back?
No they don't. They have a turbo fitted to a car, but they haven't released it for sale. So, until that happens, there's no turbo kit available for the Forte.
 

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well hate to say it but tk does offer a universal kit for 1,500 which I'm sure you could work out yourself and put on the car.

would be a pain and not real safe but in fact this would be a turbo you could buy for the forte lol
why is it we are now talking about turbos on the brake thread and brakes on the turbo thread LOL
 

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lmao im sorry i started the brake discussion on tk thread :p big mess
 

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lmao im sorry i started the brake discussion on tk thread :p big mess
Umm Im pretty sure it was I to ask tk if they found any brake fade issues on there project forte:D
Sooo I think I'm to blame on this one;)
 

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il take the blame for giving fuel to the fire :p so about those ebc brakes... I am still waiting on my red stuff brakes and slotted rotors. I might not even bother putting it on untill i go turbo. these red stuff brakes also have some type of low dust technology in them. Brake fade is not common with red stuff and im sure slotted rotors will help it out even more. For 95 bucks they better work
 
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