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Discussion Starter #21
Yup, first owner. The only thing not from the factory in this car is the gas, oil and air filter, though the air filter is OEM. It's completely stock.

It's in the dealer right now, and I've given all the info I have, videos included.

Good catch on that other vacuum gauge, I'll compare that when I get the car back.
 

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I forgot to say that - fuel flow. See when it switches from about 4 l/h to 2 l/h? (gallon/hour)
That is the very moment it is stumbling. But why would it still show measured AFR being 14.5? No clue... it should not read anything until the sensor is hot, or get the more true reading of very rich on cold.

Please update what the dealer said.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Well, at least this dealer took it inside. I'm told they removed the spark plug wires and looked at the coils. They apparently found standing water in the plug wells, and dried them out. Other than that they confirm it had error codes, but currently doesn't and is running fine. No vacuum issues, normal fuel consumption. mm hmmm...

Changed the units in torque to metric, and have the vacuum always in PSI, not convert to in/hg when in vacuum, and it warm idles at ~ -9 PSI, and in a spirited 3rd gear pull did hit 16 PSI boost.

It's supposed to drop to -12C tonight, so i'll check the vacuum again with a cold start, i'll also have some 100km+ highway driving on thursday and can check consumption again, but i get the feeling there hasn't been standing water in the plug wells since december.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Ok 2 more. For reference, this is the OBD2 reader i'm using http://a.co/7VKKnna along with torque pro.

Added air/fuel mix commanded, and switched the vacuum to stay in PSI instead of convert to IN/hg. The dial that was reporting -19.5 when the others were at -9 seems to be an anomoly, it was the only one that didn't match the others.

Cold start - https://youtu.be/p6u9T24LpvU - around -10 C with the window open, and again, no hvac or radio or heated seats on.

Vacuum doesn't sit at 0, nor do i really hear a bov venting at any point. the commanded air/fuel mix stays pretty rich. near the end of the video i get out and walk around to the exhaust.

warmish start - https://youtu.be/4hQEsgbDjsY

basically stopped the engine after the previous video for 30 seconds and started it again. idle RMP lowered, at 50+ C it should be warm enough to run at 14.7:1 air/fuel, no?
 

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They apparently found standing water in the plug wells, and dried them out.
How long have you been driving with this damage before getting the car fixed?
Also, do you have the engine cover on? I cannot say from the pictures.

The standing water explains a lot. That was the problem.
It was purely misfiring. I had this happened to my other car, but that was after I washed engine... and sprayed too much of water on it.

I guess in your case, if you were driving it for a while you could have scooped some water/snow and got it condensed there. Also, the body shop could have washed the engine or left the hood up.


AFR now is much lower, which is more normal.
Still vacuum is different, but what fuel do you use? Regular 87 octane? Yet, that is not something I would worry about too much.

You hit 16 psi, that means engine is fine.


at 50+ C it should be warm enough to run at 14.7:1 air/fuel, no?
Nope, you would not be hitting 14.7. Turbo'ed cars run rich, meaning below 14.6. According to tuner they run at 12... which I find weird because none of my logs supported that.
I will dig into it at some point.


EDIT:

A cold start, kind of cold - after about 7 hours sitting outside at about +4 deg C. Engine is at about +10 deg C.
There is a background noise from the building behind, but you can clearly see the boost gauge staying at 0 (give or take a few psi) and dropping to deep negative side at about 0:45.
I pushed the gas a few times in between (quick tap) to show how the pressure changes.

https://youtu.be/6BZ05Qwh5O4

I found some older one with very cold start. You can hear the BOV venting as well.

https://youtu.be/7a1sf3PSw7w
 

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Discussion Starter #26
How long have you been driving with this damage before getting the car fixed?
Also, do you have the engine cover on? I cannot say from the pictures.
The first time the CEL came on, and it rattled like in the first video, i made a service appointment. they got me in a few days later. The engine cover is on, the only time i've seen it come off is when one of the service guys popped it off to look at the connections.

Still vacuum is different, but what fuel do you use? Regular 87 octane? Yet, that is not something I would worry about too much.
yeah 87.

Odd, before the 2nd dealer claimed to have discovered the water, it was 14.7:1 AFR in all the videos.

I took it on the highway today, and some conspiracy level stuff is going on now. In the city, the L/100km guage very closely matches the fuel flow. At highway speeds however, it differs dramatically, with the car display being much lower.

at 100/KMH, with cruise on, on flat road, the car displays ~7L/100KM, both the instant, and if i reset the average. The OBD reads 10-11 (it bouces around)
at 115 km/h, with cruise on a flat road again, car displays 8-9. OBD reads 12-13.

https://imgur.com/a/Qli4d Pictures taken one after the other.

Maybe coincidental, but seems like they heard my complaint of bad fuel economy, and fudged it so at least the display shows a more pleasing number. But it's showing better fuel efficiency than it was achieving last summer.

I haven't washed my engine, and I dont think the body shop did either, there were still leaves lower in the engine bay.
 

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The first time the CEL came on, and it rattled like in the first video, i made a service appointment. they got me in a few days later.
I meant the accident... how long it took before you left the car with the body shop. I am just thinking if snow somehow did not find a way into the engine bay through missing fog light.

at 100/KMH, with cruise on, on flat road, the car displays ~7L/100KM, both the instant, and if i reset the average. The OBD reads 10-11 (it bouces around)
at 115 km/h, with cruise on a flat road again, car displays 8-9. OBD reads 12-13.

The instrument cluster gauge shows fuel economy in liters/100 km, while Torque displays fuel flow, in liters/h. Also, my calculations show that the cars gauge is about 10% off, using USA units. Not sure if that would translate into 10% in metric, the only correct, units. Car shows say 7 l/100 km, while the real one is 7.7 l /100 km.

So, at 115 km/h you get say 8 l/100 km, while fuel flow is 12 l/h. That means in one hour you use 12 l to drive 115 km, 12/115*100=10.4 l/100 km.
Torque uses weird algorithm and it was way off in my car, too. It would show very inaccurate numbers.


Did you see my start videos? Have you ever heard this sound?
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I meant the accident... how long it took before you left the car with the body shop. I am just thinking if snow somehow did not find a way into the engine bay through missing fog light. Did you see my start videos? Have you ever heard this sound?
It was about 2 weeks from smash to the car going in the bodyshop. This was mid october, and there wasn't any snow on the ground yet. It sat in said bodyshop for 2 months waiting on the backordered washer fluid resevoir. I got the car back Dec 22nd, and noticed the stumbling on the 29th, the check engine light came on the 31st.

I hear the sound in your video, but have never heard my car make it.
 

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I hear the sound in your video, but have never heard my car make it.
Bizarre. Then is it mine that is bad then? Is there anything different in Canadian version?

As for water - it must have gotten then somehow...
As for error itself - it could have taken a while to get it to the state it started having issues. I drove for a week without a big problem until just that day. Sure, car seemed weird a bit, but not so bad at all. I blamed petrol.

Glad it is OK now. Lets give it a few days and if it's OK, I guess you are good for now.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Seems to be, i don't trust it though. Maybe i'm just scrutinizing it too much now, every sound it makes.
 

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Kia Forte Investigation

The law firm of Migliaccio & Rathod LLP currently has an open investigation into the knocking noise found in certain Kia and Hyundai engines. If you would like to learn more about this investigation, please Google "Migliaccio & Rathod Kia" and you'll find their information on their blog. I am unfortunately unable to share the link on this post.

The firm's contact information is found in the link, but I'll write it here for your convenience.
Phone: (202) 470-3520
 

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The law firm of Migliaccio & Rathod LLP currently has an open investigation into the knocking noise found in certain Kia and Hyundai engines. If you would like to learn more about this investigation, please Google "Migliaccio & Rathod Kia" and you'll find their information on their blog. I am unfortunately unable to share the link on this post.

The firm's contact information is found in the link, but I'll write it here for your convenience.
Phone: (202) 470-3520
Dear J. Rathod,
I am not sure which exactly engine you are investigating, but 1.6T is not shared across the models listed at your site. Elantra just got it now (2018), Sonata Eco had 1.6T, rest are 2.4 or 2.0T, Fortes are 1.6T, 1.8, 2.0, and others include 2.4 as well.

  • Hyundai Elantra
  • Hyundai Santa Fe
  • Hyundai Sonata
  • Kia Forte
  • Kia Optima
  • Kia Sorrento
  • Kia Sportage
So it would be nice to be more specific what you are looking into and what exact engines are the scope of your investigation.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Bump, issue still on going, if not getting worse. Trying another round at the stealership to see if they actually want to fix something under warranty, or if all those posters on the walls are just for show.

Whole bunch of fun stuff lately, same stumbling on cold starts sometimes, but now it'll stall after running for ~45 seconds sometimes as well. seems worse when it's been plugged in. Watching what i can see on torque over obd2, the vacuum plummets when it's stumbling, not sure if that's the cause or the result. the throttle goes up to around 50% during this as well, and if anything causes it to stumble even more. It's held around 300 rmp for a good 10 seconds before stalling even just this morning.

Had it on the highway last week, sounds like the BPV isn't opening between shifts, makes a muffled groan like a baloon deflating more than a PSSHH. felt like it was lugging as well, like if you floored it in gear at 700 rpm, it'll moan and vibrate... but it was at ~2500 rpm.

had a few instances of something that felt like wheel hop, but barely on the throttle, just crawling in traffic. happens intermittently, and only ever low speed clutch engagement, givin' er a bit off the line doesn't cause this.

also had a few times under traffic crawl acceleration things are normal, but when a path opens up and i give it just normal amounts of throttle, it slowed down.

Been cold lately, i'm sure some of this is attributed to that, or at least exasperated by it, but it's still running pretty badly.

stealership thursday, i'd imagine more shrugged shoulders and nothing being done.
 

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Since you mentioned your BOV, I just had to replace mine. I had a CEL and when I took off the BOV, it had a tear in it. I replaced it, but still had the same problem of the CEL and I could hear the BOV fluttering when I shifted. I have a new RCV solenoid valve arriving today and I'll install that, which I hope solves my problem. The big difference between your problem and mine is that my car runs fantastic, better than ever at 96k miles.
 

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Actually cold makes my car even more aggressive.


I feel like we should go back to the basics.
Start with fuel flow, coils, and spark plugs.
Then all vacuum lines, BOV, turbo pipes (clamps, tears...).



Also, I would actually invest in a mechanical vacuum/boost gauge. It is much faster in response and shows ACTUAL values, not processed by ECU.
Something like that.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UM9X2HW/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


That may actually help a lot.


For the logs - boost requested vs provided, same for air/fuel ratio. We are missing something here and I bet it is a simple thing.




A long time ago I had a car that was missing under light throttle. It would idle OK, it would go fine WOT, but light steady throttle would miss and jerk.
Spent several days in the shop, took to another one where some great computer guys tested it. Nothing was wrong, yet everyone could feel the issue.
All checked out fine.


Until I finally took the book, went through all the setup, and sure enough - one stupid switch was intermittently working. It would miss ground from time to time and would cut off fuel.
It was a 1997 car with electronically controlled carburetor with cat converter. Not as complicated as 1.6T-GDI, but still.


The point is - had we gone through the very basics in the beginning, it would have been solved right away.






EDIT.
I was trying to think what the shop did.
Possible some grounds are missing or were disconnected and then put back on on the painted surface without cleaning off the paint?
The passenger side corner - there is not much of mechanical related to the turbo/fuel.
But are ground points.
Further down you have wastegate controls and vacuum lines.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Had a guy comment on a youtube vid of mine for this issue, said his 2015 SX had issues and for him it ended up being the evap canister.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Well, update time.

It was the plugs. they were a bit rusty above the threads, fairly sooty below. replaced all 4 with the same NGK plugs, fuel milage and power jammed right back up to what they should be. went from what i was getting around 350kms to a tank to easily passing 600, and again can't floor it in 2nd gear without breaking traction.

yet to be determined on the cold starts, since they only seem to stumble below -10c, and it hasn't been anywhere near that cold since i changed the plugs.
 
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