[Gringo]

KIATECH or WAVOOM:

Fellows, I desperately need your professional advice. Here it goes:

My girlfriend Sylvie's Forte SX 6 spd (10,051 kms since new late January) died yesterday. We had made several shopping stops; the car had showed absolutely no previous signs that something was wrong. She started the engine which fired right up as usual but quit within a second of starting. Following attempts at starting were unsuccesful; the starter would turn over but the engine wouldn't fire.

I thought the starter selenoid might have died but it turns out it's much worse; the dealership first checked compression which was zero on all cylinders then checked the cam timing chain and confirmed that it's where it's supposed to be. They then checked the bottom end which also turned out to be fine. They informed us that they're now waiting for authorization from Kia Canada to remove the head and check for damaged valves/cams.

The service manager and I have built up a good rapport in the past and he told me (in confidence, saying he wasn't supposed to tell her yet...)that they're 99.9% sure that the engine has been over-revved thru a missed downshift to 4th gear that ended up being a downshift to 2nd gear.

My girlfriend is absolutely, categoricaly certain that she has never done that. She's not a car chick, she bought the SX 'cause it was cute and fully loaded, drives very conservatively and doesn't particularly enjoy revving the engine. In all the time I've been with her in her car, I've never seen her go over 3,500RPM and she routinely waits 'till the engine is lugging below 1,500RPM before downshifting from 6th to 5th and again from 5th to 4th which wouldn't over-rev the engine if she did drop it into 2nd instead of 4th (kinda maddening actually. I'm sitting in the passenger seat, that poor engine is chugging'n chocking and I'm bitting very hard on my tongue lest I say something about her driving and start the kind of argument us guys can never ultimately win, even if the absolutely clear logic of our point of view is undeniable... oh, and she thinks I'm a psychopathic road demon but she routinely rides with me both in my car and on my motorcycle and never says anything. Go figure...)

So, here's what I need to know:

1. Would OBD II not record and store in memory any and all events where engine parameters were exceeded? Including the mileage at the time of exceedance?

2. If the answer is 'Yes', then wouldn't that be the first thing they'd check if over-rev is suspected? (they had not pulled the data at shop closing time today);

3. How can I be sure that the OBD printout they show us in support of the over-rev diagnostic is coming from her engine? (I'm suspecting Kia Canada may be trying to get out from under a very expensive top-end rebuild...) and can the memory be wiped clean after a 'download', removing any evidence either incriminating her or absolving her of any wrongdoing?

4. Is there anything in the cam drive system, other than the cam chain, that can go spontaneously wrong and cause the cams to stop turning and cause damage that could be (maliciously) passed off as over-rev damage.

Guys, I need answers quickly, I'm meeting with the dealer tomorrow.

Sylvie says: 'Thanks a million in advance',

******

 

[Xray89]

Huh, when learning to drive I have accidently down shifted from 5th to 2nd in a pt cruiser with nearly the same engine on a couple occasions and the car is just fine. As a matter of fact I was teaching my girlfriend the other day and she went from 4th to first in said pt and the rev limiter kicked in and gave me enough time to yank it into neutral before anything could happen. Sounds to me like they're trying to dodge any sort of repair... anyway I wish you luck!

 

[ForteGT2]

I'm not KiaTech or Vavoom...but I do play mechanic now and then...LoL

I take issue with what you are stating:

IF there is no compression in any cylinder, when you crank the engine it will spin VERY fast. Like when you take out the sparkplugs to check compression and crank the engine the sound is NOTICABLY different because the starter can spin the engine so much faster with no compression.

If the engine cranks (turns over) then there is no problem with the starter solenoid!

A broken timing chain could be the culprit -- unfortunately if that occurs the valves get bent and there is no compression.

Give them a chance to diagnose the problem before coming to conclusions...and ask to see the printout if they keep saying it was due to overreving. Ask them why the rev limiter failed if that is the case!

 

[SPEC-R_GSX]

WOW cant believe no one thought of this but here we go... OK CVVT ajusts cam timing, what if it didnt recieve data from the ECU or didnt have enough pressure to ajust the cvvt timing (bad sensor or something) id almost bet it has something to do with CVVT... that would also cause no compression... keep in mind if there isnt enough pressure in teh system the sprocket can move wherever it wants SO very well could be why there is no compression... ALSO they can get a printout from the ECU of an over-rev... BUT i doubt that would cause the motor to pop... did you happen to check the oil to make sure its high enough????

 

[Gringo]

I'm not KiaTech or Vavoom...but I do play mechanic now and then...LoL

I take issue with what you are stating:

IF there is no compression in any cylinder, when you crank the engine it will spin VERY fast. Like when you take out the sparkplugs to check compression and crank the engine the sound is NOTICABLY different because the starter can spin the engine so much faster with no compression.

If the engine cranks (turns over) then there is no problem with the starter solenoid!

A broken timing chain could be the culprit -- unfortunately if that occurs the valves get bent and there is no compression.

Give them a chance to diagnose the problem before coming to conclusions...and ask to see the printout if they keep saying it was due to overreving. Ask them why the rev limiter failed if that is the case!

Hey, thanks for contributing!

I guess I wasn't clear; I initially thought it was the selenoid but it did crank much faster than normal (no compression therefore much reduced load on the starter);

Timing chain is fine and sitting exactly where it's supposed to be according to the service manager;

The rev limiter cuts out ignition but that won't stop an engine from over-revving if you drop it from top gear to 2nd at very high speed, say from 100+ mph. In that event it's the driving wheels that are turning the engine, not the combustion process, resulting in valve float and catastrophic damage to valves, piston and possible cam(s).

You are correct, I need to wait for them to complete the diagnostic. But the service manager told me (in confidence, for what that's worth..) that Kia Canada has already decided this is an over-rev incident and intends to deny the warranty claim, before the head as been pulled... I'm simply trying to arm myself with information to counter.

Thanks much.

******

 

[Gringo]

WOW cant believe no one thought of this but here we go... OK CVVT ajusts cam timing, what if it didnt recieve data from the ECU or didnt have enough pressure to ajust the cvvt timing (bad sensor or something) id almost bet it has something to do with CVVT... that would also cause no compression... keep in mind if there isnt enough pressure in teh system the sprocket can move wherever it wants SO very well could be why there is no compression... ALSO they can get a printout from the ECU of an over-rev... BUT i doubt that would cause the motor to pop... did you happen to check the oil to make sure its high enough????

I like your theory!!

Oil is fine; was changed at the dealer 3 weeks ago and I double checked it myself + no oil pressure/check engine light..

Thanks!

******

 

[SubtleStyle]

I know that sportier expensive vehicles such as the Nissan GT-R have event recorders to protect Nissan from warranty repairs when drivers are racing their vehicles and blowing up the engines but I'm not sure our little Fortes have such a thing. Did the service manager hint to something such as this?

It sounds like they might be assuming that a missed downshift caused a problem rather than actually knowing it. I thought a rev limiter was in place to help protect the engine in cases like this anyway? Remember just deny, deny, deny any wrong doing on your part.

 

[MaxD]

I'm a tech at a Freightliner dealership... If kia obd program works like our engines programs, it's possible to see almost everything including engine overspeed. But I think it's B.S. when they told you that she went from 4th to 2nd. The print should include the vin number of the car as a proof.

No compression = bent valves or piston rings failure. There are other causes but most likely impossible on a 10000km car. My quest is bent valves. I'm wondering if the cvvt system could cause that... If the system fails, the timing could be way off. But it sould be built to be fail proof.

 

[Gringo]

I'm a tech at a Freightliner dealership... If kia obd program works like our engines programs, it's possible to see almost everything including engine overspeed. But I think it's B.S. when they told you that she went from 4th to 2nd. The print should include the vin number of the car as a proof.

No compression = bent valves or piston rings failure. There are other causes but most likely impossible on a 10000km car. My quest is bent valves. I'm wondering if the cvvt system could cause that... If the system fails, the timing could be way off. But it sould be built to be fail proof.

Thanks for contributing!

Simultaneous piston ring failure in all 4 cylinders (no compression in any of them) is extremely unlikely so valves it most likely is.

Agreed, a CVVT system should be designed to not cause catastrophic damage in the event of malfunction. We'll see soon...

Again, Thanks!

******

 

[Rainyraven]

An Interference engine is a type of internal combustion engine where in the event of a serious valve train failure, or a 180 degree timing error, could lead the valves and pistons to strike each other. The most common cause of this a broken timing belt, but a catastrophic timing chain failure can also bring about this situation.
The reason for this is that for an engine to work properly, the actions of the pistons and valves must be precisely harmonized. This is accomplished in three ways. In racing engines, gears may connect the camshaft and crankshaft. In street engines, that task is accomplished by a timing chain or belt. When the chain or belt is installed, the camshaft and crank must be turned so that the number one cylinder is at Top Dead Center, or when it is at the maximum of its stroke. Generally, there are timing marks on the timing gears. or pulleys to aid in this, and the gears themselves are usually keyed to prevent misalignment. However, some people do screw it up.
If the belt or chain breaks, then this relationship is destroyed, and the valves and pistons move independently. In most automobile engines, this does no serious damage. The motor simply stops running until the belt/chain is replaced and the engine retimed. Even when the valves and pistons are at full extension, a small gap remains between them. We call this a non-interference engine. But such designs are not ubiquitous, and designers seeking a small combustion chamber may produce an interference design. The Porsche 944 3.0, and Volkswagon/Audi 1.8T engines are interference engines.


Most small motors are built this way.. mitshu 2.0 is a good example I'm betting our theata motor is a interference motor as well

I understand the timing chain on your motor was said to be ok.. but as others said if the computer read the signals wrong it may have jump timing 180 degrees and that would cause the falure and also the dealship thinking you over rev it.

 

[MaxD]

If they denied the warranty, get your car towed to another dealer and ask for a second opinion.

 

[Diggs59]

Good 'ol KIa...trying to eff someone else over. I second taking it to another dealer. I also say take those slimey effers to court and make them prove what they're saying. Make sure that if they're reading the ECU that it's not from a generic diagnosis. It should have your vin# on it. Screw Kia.

 

[Gringo]

If they denied the warranty, get your car towed to another dealer and ask for a second opinion.

They haven't denied the claim officially yet (waiting to get authorization from Kia Canada to pull the head), and the problem seems to be with Kia Canada and not the dealership. I'm about to find out if the service manager's friendship is genuine. He could turn out to be just another snake...

******

 

[MaxD]

Thanks for contributing!

Simultaneous piston ring failure in all 4 cylinders (no compression in any of them) is extremely unlikely so valves it most likely is.

Agreed, a CVVT system should be designed to not cause catastrophic damage in the event of malfunction. We'll see soon...

Again, Thanks!

******

I agree that simultaneous piston rings failure is almost impossible, but believe me nothing is impossible

 

[Diggs59]

They haven't denied the claim officially yet (waiting to get authorization from Kia Canada to pull the head), and the problem seems to be with Kia Canada and not the dealership. I'm about to find out if the service manager's friendship is genuine. He could turn out to be just another snake...

******

A "snake-oil salesman" is a better choice of verbiage.

 

[SubtleStyle]

I don't think he would of told you all of that if he wasn't trying to help. I wouldn't go as far as thinking of him as a snake but he probably isn't going to put his neck out there to help you either.

 

[Gringo]

I don't think he would of told you all of that if he wasn't trying to help. I wouldn't go as far as thinking of him as a snake but he probably isn't going to put his neck out there to help you either.

That's how I'm inclined to see it...

******

 

[tampajoey]

I thought a rev limiter was in place to help protect the engine in cases like this anyway? .

if i remember rightly- our lil kia books say something to the effect of
"dont downshift too quickly- or you will blow the engine up"

from my reading of the kia books- the rev limiter keeps you from blowing up the engine by keeping the rev's down to 6k if you are going forward fast and forget to shift to the next gear.

 

[tampajoey]

another thought i have-

so- while all of this is going on-
did your girlfriend get another car on someone elses nickle?
and how long is that going to last if she did get a rental?

after all- a tear down to see what the problem is- well- just leads to waiting for parts and then the build back up.....
seriously- i am hoping to hear that kia(the manufactour) and kia(the dealerships) step up and do the right thing here...........

 

[Rainyraven]

if i remember rightly- our lil kia books say something to the effect of
"dont downshift too quickly- or you will blow the engine up"

from my reading of the kia books- the rev limiter keeps you from blowing up the engine by keeping the rev's down to 6k if you are going forward fast and forget to shift to the next gear.

Hmm that sounds kinda odd.
I'm not saying your wrong, just thinking its werid the rev limter works that way rather then always keeping your from over reving the motor.