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prev kias were the same and many other cars. to see full potential you need a tune.

the ecu will see the leaner condition or or atrificially lean condition and send the signal for more fuel. if it was oppositie hyundai tuners, kia tuners would not have looked at standalone options, piggybacks etc. i have said this before.
 

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prev kias were the same and many other cars. to see full potential you need a tune.

the ecu will see the leaner condition or or atrificially lean condition and send the signal for more fuel. if it was oppositie hyundai tuners, kia tuners would not have looked at standalone options, piggybacks etc. i have said this before.
so you're saying that since we put more air into the ratio with the CAI, the ecu overcompensates to make it less lean?
 

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it will run rich.
to see full potential with mods, you/we will need a tune.

heres another tidbit:if you clean youre electronic throttle body (etc) due to carbon buildup, the etc valve position has to be Reset with use of GDS.
 

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I guess the lesson here is that "if we repeat false information over and over again, it will become truth".

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the engine control unit will compensate - to some degree - for anything you throw at it. I can monitor the air/fuel ration in the car and in less than one second the ECU compensates for everything from a hand over the intake to wide open air into the throttle body. It's called 'modern electronic fuel injection'.

The a/f map these cars come with from the factory is built wide and deep enough to handle everything from sea level in Florida in August to a mountain drive in Banff in January. You seriously think that a little change in air filter is going to cause MORE of an adaption to conditions than that?

The only time you'll need a retune is if you have tried to increase your power by more than 25%, or there about. At those levels the stock injectors will start seeing their pulse width increase with RPM to a level they cannot supply and your car may run lean at higher RPM. P0170 is the code you'll likely see. As well, the ECU is probably not programmed to handle maps with those values. But anything less than that, I would almost certainly say is fine.

Oh and about the ETC reset... the Forte goes through an adaptive relearn process on every start-up. So no, that reset should not be required anymore.
 

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I guess the lesson here is that "if we repeat false information over and over again, it will become truth"...

The only time you'll need a retune is if you have tried to increase your power by more than 25%, or there about....

For the longest time gipphard's info was right. cai's increased air and ecu's would correct the lean fuel curve with making it rich. With direct injection and new ecu's, I don't know if it's still true. I know I don't know enough about these systems. His logic is not flawed.

With a cai and less restrictive exhaust changes, it sometimes does equal that 25%. I'm not saying it will with this car. Truthfully, I'm not sure.
 

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Gasoline has a BTU rating of around 115,000 or so. This stays the same irregardless of the octane rating. The octane rating is a measure of a fuels resistance to auto ignite. So your running a fuel in your engine that's harder to ignite than what it was designed for. You won't get as complete a burn which results in less power and higher emmisions. As KiaTech says the ECU over time will adapt to the higher octane of the fuel and make use of it. However no manufacturer is going to allow it's ECU to come close to pushing the fuel and timing curves to just before detontation especially if the engine doesn't have a knock sensor for the simple reason of warranty issues. If your able to flash the ECU to take full advantage of the 91 or high octane then it's probably worth it but for maybe a few horsepower from the stock ECU with the fuel costing 11 cents a litre more doesn't really seem worth it IMO It's strange you don't have 87 octane there. How much does the 89 cost?
The 90 grade costs 89.9 per Litre 89 costs the same at other stations. When you get the 92 or 93 then you pay the extra 7 to 11 cents.
 

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The 90 grade costs 89.9 per Litre 89 costs the same at other stations. When you get the 92 or 93 then you pay the extra 7 to 11 cents.
Gas so cheap over there, here the low octane is 91 grade and costs $1.32 per litre and premium grade is 95 octane is $1.38.:(
 

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kiatech wrote:I guess the lesson here is that "if we repeat false information over and over again, it will become truth".
which post hos? I've posted that a difference between MAF & MAP is that MAP does not meter air like MAF does. It uses many sensors to collect data then uses a pre determined map. According to you thats 'false'...really

kiatech wrote:Sorry to burst your bubble, but the engine control unit will compensate - to some degree - for anything you throw at it. I can monitor the air/fuel ration in the car and in less than one second the ECU compensates for everything from a hand over the intake to wide open air into the throttle body. It's called 'modern electronic fuel injection'.
Not on the fly it doesn't. KIA's own document says it can take 200km to relearn & settle down. It's more than that in reality. Funny thing over here we tested my Forte SX with an ECU flash at the dealer. According to KIA's own documents on flashing for Forte, it may take 200km for the car to readjust, relearn. Well, I was on my 7th tank of shell gas and getting maybe 350k on a tank & shifts, maps or fuel trims were still scrambled. We again followed KIA's document on adaptive relearn proceedure. Finally, after next 2 tanks of gas it started to settle down. So according to youre post, that never happened...good to know.

All the hyundai's & kias in the last few years that looked to piggybacks, kuks, smt-6, aem, etc, didnt happen either... part of my bubble ... or arent , how did you put it 'modern electronic fuel injected' good to know again kiatech.

kiatech wrote:Oh and about the ETC reset... the Forte goes through an adaptive relearn process on every start-up. So no, that reset should not be required anymore.
good to know again, according to you, kias own tsb's for service action are incorrect and not needed. Wow, kia must be so excited to have you on their team.
 

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The 90 grade costs 89.9 per Litre 89 costs the same at other stations. When you get the 92 or 93 then you pay the extra 7 to 11 cents.
Haven't seen 89.9 in a while. Our 87 is .95/litre and 89 is a little over a buck. We've got HST coming july 1st which will add another 8 cents a litre. :mad:
 

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@[email protected] : I guess we'll never know if gripphard's information is correct, since he has not provided anything to support his claims.

Allow me to cite facts, with references: KIA Canada Tech Tip #TT2020080114:
Throttle initialization occurs every time the ignition switch is tuned to the run position. This is a part of the Throttle Position (TP) minimum learn process the PCM uses this to base line the Throttle Position performance. The throttle plate moves from default to minimum mechanical position and back to the default position.
So this tells me that the ETC doesn't need to be manually reset after being cleaned and deposits removed from it, as it will find it's own minimum position, every start up. The above TSB is in relation to the 3.3/3.8L Lambda series of engines, as that was the first electronic throttle Kia had but the information is relevant to the Theta and Mu engines, as well.

The only previous mention of a reset after throttle cleaning I can find is in reference to the 02-05 model Sedona... a cable actuated throttle and NOT an ETC. This is in KCI Tech Tip #TT0320060114:
02-05 MY Sedona stalling at stops.Clean throttle body and IAC and perform base idle adjustment procedure with Hi Scan Pro. Closely monitor MAF signal in current data and compare the signal to a good know value either with hi-scan wave pattern or preferably a good known vehicle.
If gripphard would care to reference any other documents as applicable, I'm happy to look them over.

Now, as far as the repeating of false info, simply refer to posts 9, 13, 21 and 23. In each one gripphard consistently maintains that cars need a retune after a mild modification (he cites a CAI). This is 100% false as I explained in my post #22. Maybe back in the early days of fuel injection, things would need a retune after a 4% change in hp... but not anymore. That's why we have all these sensors doing all this good work... so the car CAN adapt and QUICKLY. The government mandates this so that emissions can be reduced. The faster and more able the car is to adjust itself to stoich, the better controlled the emissions.

And what document says 200kms is required for any relearn of anything? Time to start putting some file numbers up here, so the rest of the world can read along. There is TSB TS0420100114 which deals with "ECM Upgrade- Forte (TD) 2.0 M/T RPM Flare Improvement (Popping Noise)" but I have read through that and there is nothing there... in fact, the final step in the procedure is simply "Start the engine and confirm proper operation of the vehicle. ". Doesn't tell the tech to drive 200kms... just "start it up". Ta-da. Other than that there is KCI Service Action #SA1120090114: "(SA094) ECM Upgrade- Auto Cruise Speed Improvement" and again... no mention of any relearn required or a distance, or anything other than "confirm proper operation..."

The only situation I can think of that a car would need to be driven a distance after a 'reset' or 'relearn' is with the automatic transmission, and an adaptive value reset. But this is a 10 minute trip down the road to complete it's cycle, and not the "bring a lunch" trek you are referring to.

My apologies to the rest of the community for continuing to lead this topic astray. I will now bow out of the conversation having certainly defended myself with enough facts to lay my case to rest.
 

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@[email protected] : I guess we'll never know if gripphard's information is correct, since he has not provided anything to support his claims.
nobody knows how to search kiatech or gsw.:)

kiatech wrote:So this tells me that the ETC doesn't need to be manually reset after being cleaned and deposits removed from it, as it will find it's own minimum position, every start up. The above TSB is in relation to the 3.3/3.8L Lambda series of engines, as that was the first electronic throttle Kia had but the information is relevant to the Theta and Mu engines, as well.

The only previous mention of a reset after throttle cleaning I can find is in reference to the 02-05 model Sedona... a cable actuated throttle and NOT an ETC. This is in KCI Tech Tip #TT0320060114:
...its troublesome you post that as its unrelated.

kiatech wrote:If gripphard would care to reference any other documents as applicable, I'm happy to look them over.

Now, as far as the repeating of false info, simply refer to posts 9, 13, 21 and 23. In each one gripphard consistently maintains that cars need a retune after a mild modification (he cites a CAI). This is 100% false as I explained in my post #22. Maybe back in the early days of fuel injection, things would need a retune after a 4% change in hp... but not anymore. That's why we have all these sensors doing all this good work... so the car CAN adapt and QUICKLY. The government mandates this so that emissions can be reduced. The faster and more able the car is to adjust itself to stoich, the better controlled the emissions.

And what document says 200kms is required for any relearn of anything? Time to start putting some file numbers up here, so the rest of the world can read along. There is TSB TS0420100114 which deals with "ECM Upgrade- Forte (TD) 2.0 M/T RPM Flare Improvement (Popping Noise)" but I have read through that and there is nothing there... in fact, the final step in the procedure is simply "Start the engine and confirm proper operation of the vehicle. ". Doesn't tell the tech to drive 200kms... just "start it up". Ta-da. Other than that there is KCI Service Action #SA1120090114: "(SA094) ECM Upgrade- Auto Cruise Speed Improvement" and again... no mention of any relearn required or a distance, or anything other than "confirm proper operation..."

The only situation I can think of that a car would need to be driven a distance after a 'reset' or 'relearn' is with the automatic transmission, and an adaptive value reset. But this is a 10 minute trip down the road to complete it's cycle, and not the "bring a lunch" trek you are referring to.
...hmmm ...sure...

March 2010 TSB Fuel 018 -
THETA-2.0/2.4L ELECTRONIC THROTTLE BODY CLEANING PROCEDURE
TSB KT2007020701 - All Models Adaptive Relearn/ Reset Proceedure.
 

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The TSB you cite is from Kia US, and not KCI. I only concern myself with information as provided by Kia Canada as that is who I answer to. And even in the TSB you mention, there is still nothing about this "200 km" you claim the ECU will require. Besides the fact that this is all dealing with a physical value, and not a measured value that the ECU would base fuel trim on. Please better support your information as I grow tired of your inferences and reading between the lines.
 

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kiatech wrote:please better support your information as I grow tired of your inferences and reading between the lines.
It is you that has an agenda & you stated it in post #20.

TSB KT2009110303 - Borrego. Is one document. Kia mentions that it may take couple hundred miles until all adaptives are set. Theres at least another KIA document that talks about a couple hundred miles before adaptives are relearned. Just cant find it right now. Talking with Hyundai shop they mentioned it too that it can take a couple hundred miles for adaptives to relearned from driver input. We may have been talking about the Sonata., theres been some updates for that model to.
 

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interesting thread you guys. so i'm currently putting in 89 in my sx koup usually from 76. would you guys suggest just putting in 87? would this also be the case if i ended up getting a cai later? (sorry if i'm repeating a question that was already addressed earlier)
 

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interesting thread you guys. so i'm currently putting in 89 in my sx koup usually from 76. would you guys suggest just putting in 87? would this also be the case if i ended up getting a cai later? (sorry if i'm repeating a question that was already addressed earlier)
87 octane works fine in both my Fortes. If you want to spend the extra $1-$2 per fill-up for 89 octane (or $2-$4 for 93 octane) it's your choice.
 

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The dealer filled me up with regular when I bought the car, last night I had run the car to just about empty (i had like .2 gallons left haha) and decided to fill it up with Vpower from Shell. Maybe it was just my imagination but i really feel like the car is preforming better. I feel as if I have less lag in acceleration and also accelerate faster.
 

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The dealer filled me up with regular when I bought the car, last night I had run the car to just about empty (i had like .2 gallons left haha) and decided to fill it up with Vpower from Shell. Maybe it was just my imagination but i really feel like the car is preforming better. I feel as if I have less lag in acceleration and also accelerate faster.
Common sense tells me that the premium might indeed help in the initial acceleration simply because the load on the engine probably requires reduced timing to prevent "ping" under heavy acceleration. Premium might allow the ECM to advance timing at that point -- but other than that 87 octate is all you probably need. Need someone to go through the trouble of actualy testing this theory on a dragstrip with times...dyno will not provide real proof.
 
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