[punksmurph]

honestly, who cares how it compares. piggyback systems are great and all, but most tuners want something plug and play so they can bring their car into a dealer and not get the hassle of warranty arguments. the aem fuel/air ignition controller also looks to need wire splicing... honestly anything that needs wire splicing shouldn't be over 250 unless you get at least 20 more horses out of an N/A engine that has been factory tuned a$$ backwards like the forte has. each gear seems to have it's own personality which makes no sense. I really wish someone would break the code and it could just be hooked up to a laptop and tuned with a program like HPTuners or Trifecta. Mind you, I am not knocking this piggyback product, it probably takes care of the random gear personality and gives you a bit more power...but, most people don't want to splice wires... then again we also have to accept the Kia market isn't as booming as some others... plus it's easier to tune cars that are already F/I.

Here is the issue with NA cars and power gains, you start with little so you gain little. I dropped a grand on NA parts for my Suzuki SX4 and gained a whole 30 HP at the wheels and about 2 MPG, and the only issue SX4 owners have is how rich the stock car runs. I spent $5K on a turbo for the SX4 to doubled my HP, got the same MPG, and not lose drivability. Speed cost money when you start so far down. For my new Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart I can spend $500 and gain 80 HP, of course the car comes stock with a turbo and 235HP to start. Each gain is going to be larger to start with.

Like you said Kia is not a popular option for tuners, the crowd is small right now and parts will be hard to come buy and expensive. You don't have a Plug n Play option for ECU tuning, AEM does not list Kia for its harness extensions! Even then the AEM FIC is $427-$600 and you still have to get it tuned. The RRM Piggy Back is $429 and already comes tuned for you. With both options you have to splice, find a good electronics tech and the dealers will never know. Also I have never seen a sub 250HP engine get 20HP from just a tune. Now get an intake, headers, exhaust and tune the car on 91 then you will get 20HP from tuning it properly, thats on top of the minor gains you get from the other parts.

Forte owners are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to people who are going to put serious money into parts for the car. When the company that races Fortes does not care enough to produce product after more than a year you know that there is just not enough demand for a return. Also Kia does not want the Forte ECU to be broken, there is a lot of code they would rather not have you touch, they are not tuner friendly as Subaru or Mitsubishi.

 

[93'DET]

Care to elaborate?

Oops, sorry...probably too big of a word for you.

What do you mean?

Your high horse...get off.

I was agreeing with you. Any "gain" under 10whp is considered "dyno noise" and shouldn't really be looked as an improvement. So all the variables you stated is what can cause inaccurate readings on a dyno. I'm just telling everyone that what you just explained is correct and "THIS" needs to be read again.

 

[punksmurph]

Your high horse...get off.

I was agreeing with you. Any "gain" under 10whp is considered "dyno noise" and shouldn't really be looked as an improvement. So all the variables you stated is what can cause inaccurate readings on a dyno. I'm just telling everyone that what you just explained is correct and "THIS" needs to be read again.

So what your saying is that you dispute any dyno claim that is not at least what? 10HP? 20HP? TurboKits.com claimed +6HP on a dyno, do you dispute that as well? Not all parts make large gains, and if you can manage conditions then a dynometer is an accurate representation of power. I would like to point out that this was done in SoCal in fall, so the weather outside is ideal for these sorts of measurements.

 

[PROBLEMATIC]

I kinda get it. For me the piggyback is not worth it rather get the fic. And thats true paying 450 for 6hp for me is a rip off, want someone to crack are ecu 's , because down here, there are tuners whos reflash have gotten 15 and 20 hp to the stock lancer 2.0 with stupid mods, and the cost is just 250 dyno included.

 

[ForteGT2]

So what your saying is that you dispute any dyno claim that is not at least what? 10HP? 20HP? TurboKits.com claimed +6HP on a dyno, do you dispute that as well? Not all parts make large gains, and if you can manage conditions then a dynometer is an accurate representation of power. I would like to point out that this was done in SoCal in fall, so the weather outside is ideal for these sorts of measurements.

punksmurph...I have issues with dyno tests used to sell a product...not because I think a company willfully alters the readings but because of the minimal experience i've had with having tested my own cars on dynos. I have pulled three runs back-to-back with the same car, on the same dyno, with no changes and seen different readings each time. Differences as much as 7 HP! With results like that I find it hard to believe a single product that produces a small change can be accurately identified. It is even possible that TK's dyno run may have shown 6 HP gain but the real overall gain could have been higher -- if that particular run was actually one of the worst for the car at that time.

Another issue too is altering -- the owner/operator of the dyno I last used was able to adjust the readings...how do you control that?

And finally...the way you run a dyno is not the same as when you floor your car at the dragstrip (for example). I believe the engine often makes more HP in real use Vs a dyno. Why? Because on the dyno you take the engine to 2K RPM to start the test -- and you push the acellerator briskly but do not slam it WOT. On the street/strip you "floor it" off idle (Auto) or "pop" the clutch (manual) at a higher RPM to get a good jump. The dyno doesn't "see" these "takeoffs".

Me personally, I like to see dragstrip results (1/8 mile or 1/4 mile) -- I think these show whether or not a product really works.

 

[punksmurph]

I kinda get it. For me the piggyback is not worth it rather get the fic. And thats true paying 450 for 6hp for me is a rip off, want someone to crack are ecu 's , because down here, there are tuners whos reflash have gotten 15 and 20 hp to the stock lancer 2.0 with stupid mods, and the cost is just 250 dyno included.

I know a lot of Lancer guys and I have never seen 20HP gain from a tune for a 2.0L, maybe the Ralliart 2.0L Turbo but not the base 2.0L. RPW was able to get 5HP gain from a full tune on a car with just a HKS filter, but not 20HP. I think that ideas of power are way out of line. Heck even Works only got 4HP and 6 lbs/ft out of a flash. These are reputable companies that put a lot of time and effort into the Lancer and that is the gain they get. The piggy makes the same number and you can tune it down the line when you have future mods.

I am currently working on tuning my 3rd car I have owned, and I have help a couple other friends with theirs. In my experience with all the different makes and models I have never seen the gains at the price you guys want. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. One day there may be a plug and play ECU option but it will cost you, in my experience around $500-$600. The cheapest I have ever seen a car tunned is the Evo, but there is a ton of support for the car and competition lowers prices.

 

[ForteGT2]

I know a lot of Lancer guys and I have never seen 20HP gain from a tune for a 2.0L, maybe the Ralliart 2.0L Turbo but not the base 2.0L. RPW was able to get 5HP gain from a full tune on a car with just a HKS filter, but not 20HP. I think that ideas of power are way out of line. Heck even Works only got 4HP and 6 lbs/ft out of a flash. These are reputable companies that put a lot of time and effort into the Lancer and that is the gain they get. The piggy makes the same number and you can tune it down the line when you have future mods.

I am currently working on tuning my 3rd car I have owned, and I have help a couple other friends with theirs. In my experience with all the different makes and models I have never seen the gains at the price you guys want. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. One day there may be a plug and play ECU option but it will cost you, in my experience around $500-$600. The cheapest I have ever seen a car tunned is the Evo, but there is a ton of support for the car and competition lowers prices.

I agree with you on this for the most part...depends on the way a vehicle comes from the manufacturer too. I can tell you one of my early Fords, which came with a 6 banger and a 1.75" factory exhaust was a slug when I bought it. I did all the tricks to the engine (bigger carb, retuned ignition, electric fan, etc) and the darned thing would only do 80 MPH. I replaced the exhaust with a 2" free flowing custom one and a turbo muffler -- and the car would scoot past 100 MPH with ease! Today's cars are better made and tuned but there are always ways manufacturers kill HP...probably to ease the warranty repair burden...LoL

 

[AutoItKing]

Unfortunately the only time you will see significant gains is if you got diesel. My friend programmed his Jetta 1.9 with an aggressive fuel saver tune, and gained 34 horsepower, and close to 60 torque. And that was the "weak" tune. He can crank it up to over 60HP gain! If you are all about programming, then get diesel!

 

[PROBLEMATIC]

WEL COME TO PUERTO RICO AND YOU WILL SEE IT ON A DAILY BASIS, 20 HP WITH INTAKE EXHAUST AND A REFLASH DONT BELIVE ME GO TO YOUTUBE AND TYPE LANCER REFLASH AND YES THE COST IS 250. AND HERE YOU GOhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alHT6wt8JhA

 

[punksmurph]

punksmurph...I have issues with dyno tests used to sell a product...not because I think a company willfully alters the readings but because of the minimal experience i've had with having tested my own cars on dynos. I have pulled three runs back-to-back with the same car, on the same dyno, with no changes and seen different readings each time. Differences as much as 7 HP! With results like that I find it hard to believe a single product that produces a small change can be accurately identified. It is even possible that TK's dyno run may have shown 6 HP gain but the real overall gain could have been higher -- if that particular run was actually one of the worst for the car at that time.

Another issue too is altering -- the owner/operator of the dyno I last used was able to adjust the readings...how do you control that?

And finally...the way you run a dyno is not the same as when you floor your car at the dragstrip (for example). I believe the engine often makes more HP in real use Vs a dyno. Why? Because on the dyno you take the engine to 2K RPM to start the test. On the street/strip you floor it off idle (Auto) or "pop" the clutch (manual) at a higher RPM to get a good jump. The dyno doesn't "see" these "takeoffs".

Me personally, I like to see dragstrip results (1/8 mile or 1/4 mile) -- I think these show whether or not a product really works.

I understand what you mean, early on I felt the same way you did. But then I watch my friend turn in results at the strip and on autocross courses. It is one thing to have a skeptical eye but another to come on here and say that Dynos are not accurate representations when your experience is limited. I have seen it myself were a dyno can throw a bad number, it is just like any other test, sometimes you get garbage, just reset and do it again. I watched by car put down 3 dyno runs at 205-208HP when I was retuning my turbo SX4, 4 pull was 386HP! It happens, TurboKits gives the lowest value because they feel that is the best way to represent the product, most companies do the same or they average 5-6 pulls and give out a number.

Search the net and look at how trusted shops are. I can hardly find a bad word about TK, RRM has a great rep with the Mitsubishi, Suzuki, and Tiburon crowd. I can find negatives about both shops, TK has taken flack for kits from other companies they sell; RRM had hassles with NSPP product for Genesis Coup guys. Every company has its hiccups, it is how they respond that matters, RRM has worked very well with the SX4 and Kizashi communities (I run the largest SX4 Forum on the net) and there is a lot of respect for them. I hold TK in high regards for the way they approach customers and work on meeting their needs. I just feel that people have been super unfair when it comes demands on price and performance. These shops have been working for a long time and know what they are doing, they prove it with great product.

Until there is a reason not to trust them and comes with some really strong evidence I wish people would be less difficult with vendors. This is how a car losses support.

 

[PROBLEMATIC]

I TALK ONLY WITH PROVE AND HERE YOU GO GUYS. THE KEY TO THIS IS A GOOD TUNER THATS IT. THE GRAPH DOESNT LIE, AND IF YOU STILL DOUBT IT TAKE A VACATION HERE IN PUERTO RICO AND ILL SHOW YOU.

 

[punksmurph]

WEL COME TO PUERTO RICO AND YOU WILL SEE IT ON A DAILY BASIS, 20 HP WITH INTAKE EXHAUST AND A REFLASH DONT BELIVE ME GO TO YOUTUBE AND TYPE LANCER REFLASH AND YES THE COST IS 250. AND HERE YOU GOhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alHT6wt8JhA

Different story, the car has an intake and exhaust, when tunned properly you will see a good gain. I bet if you got an intake, exhaust and tune on the Forte you will see the same, but you have to tune the car for it. The numbers provided are FOR A STOCK CAR!

 

[PROBLEMATIC]

Thats my point , this numbers where with bolt ons, and in the stock car i have videos with 12 hp. And the exhast on that car is just an axle back that doesnt really count, wich proves that not only stock turbo cars can produce 20hp whith a tune. Not trying to piss anyone off but, there are better things out there with even better prices. But tuners( not all) are to comftreable, and dont like to sweet for their money anymore. Because i think the piggyback isint cost worthy when compared with what ive shown and i know it is possible for the forte, tuners just have to work hard.

 

[PROBLEMATIC]

And rememeber the first pass of the lancer it had everything on , wich means the 18hp was tuning alone.

 

[KovyForteSX]

with a tune... stock turbo cars can bounce up 50whp. balt ss 260bhp/260lb.ft. 17psi from factory... with a 20psi tune, retard the timing, play with the a/f.. you are at 300whp/320lb.ft... it's a big jump, all depends on the car's initial setup... i still think the Forte's 2.4L can be tuned to have the a/f and ignition mapped out to work more effectively bone stock and see 20whp.. with bolt ons.. maybe 30-40whp... i think it may, as i don't know everything about these motors, it may have a super suppressing intake manifold baffle which may cause an issue... or may not..

 

[93'DET]

So what your saying is that you dispute any dyno claim that is not at least what? 10HP? 20HP? TurboKits.com claimed +6HP on a dyno, do you dispute that as well? Not all parts make large gains, and if you can manage conditions then a dynometer is an accurate representation of power. I would like to point out that this was done in SoCal in fall, so the weather outside is ideal for these sorts of measurements.

I, and many other, have held to the philosophy that a anything less then a 10whp gain is too small for it being considered a substantial gain. Yes products can increase a reliable 6whp, but the product, let's say an intake, will change the power band slightly and the driver will feel that change MORE then the 6whp. I never stated that a dyno can't represent accurate data.

I have pulled three runs back-to-back with the same car, on the same dyno, with no changes and seen different readings each time. Differences as much as 7 HP!

Thank you!

 

[93'DET]

I think we all need to realize that volumetric efficiency plays a HUGE roll in how the Forte will produce power, even with a tune.

 

[PROBLEMATIC]

The thing is , its a new car its not a b series egine wich everyone knows its trick. You have to have faith in the car and research a lot more. I know its a good power plant capable of a lot more, the only thing that we need is some good tuning.

 

[littlenanner85]

I have used a motorcycle/atv dyno personally. I agree with people being skeptical with dyno results. Yes a dyno can be accurate and give good readings if the person running the dyno is not "cheating" the dyno. as said earlier about the temp, baro pressure, engine temp. there is what gear you pull in, rpm engagement of the run, rpm roll, what you set the dyno drag at, gear ratios, there's even an option to change graphs of different dynos because each manufacture calculates torque and horsepower different on there machines. a dyno is unbelievably easy to make false reading runs. so yes just a dyno graph or some no one i trust non speaking puerto ricoans on youtube pulling horriable runs is good enough evidence for me. turbokits.com and such i have a better time believing.

 

[littlenanner85]

I just watched turbokits.com kia forte video. Not saying you did this turbokits.com but just trying to prove a point. Pull #1 was shot from the front and you can not see the door if it is open or closed. Pull #2 was shot from the rear. you see plain as day the door is open. that right there could make a huge difference. especially since it looks like there could be snow on the ground. I am pretty sure it is open both times due to the exhaust clips right before the door is open and the reflections on the car from the sunlight. another thing is watch how he looks at the computer, most likely telling him what his actual rpms are not the tach rpms for dyno engagement. and waiting for the dyno to tell him when to start. the dyno is in free spin mode when at first then he must roll on the gas aggressively exactly the same time the dyno tells him to. that is when the dyno puts a drag to load the engine. Now angry man PROBLAMATIC this guy just shifts thru the gears not giving a dang what rpm he starts at or when the machine is ready. He wasn't even on the gas when he started. went from foot off pedal to pedal to floor. very inaccurate. He probably read a how to use a dyno for dummies to learn how to use it. (engagement rpm is set as low as the car can handle making a smooth acceleration and not making the engine chug.) I could easly make a fake 20hp gain pull.