[alexthefifth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2pVI6gJkLI

My 2010 Kia Forte EX 2.0L developed the "cold knock" problem 3+ years ago. It has progressively gotten worse. Especially noticeable on cold mornings. I've taken it to mechanics for this problem who replaced/adjusted/lubricated various parts but the problem never really went away, telling me that it sounds normal. I'm now at 116k and wish I googled for this problem earlier. Turns out I'm not alone with this problem.

There's over 3100 members on the Quebec Class Action Lawsuit facebook page for Kia Forte engine "knocking" problems. Pretty much every day 2-3 new people are posting about this problem. Lots of people there are saying Kia Canada is replacing many of these engines for free, even when out of warranty. Some people have had their engines replaced 2-3 times. I wish Kia would just own up that their 2010-2015 Kia Forte engines have defects and do a proper recall.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/kiaforteproblememoteur
Class action page: http://tjl.quebec/recours-collectifs/kia-forte-problemes-de-moteur/

 

[alexthefifth]

Another class action lawsuit about this, in USA: http://www.classlawdc.com/2018/02/01/hyundai-kia-engine-knock-class-action-investigation/

 

[kiaguy007]

... My 2010 Kia Forte EX 2.0L developed the "cold knock" problem 3+ years ago. It has progressively gotten worse. Especially noticeable on cold mornings. ....

There are boat loads of people ranting about Kia/Hyundai engine noise, including that Canadian Facebook group. There are lots of sources of noise on newer engines, and for me noise alone means nothing, unless it can be diagnosed as being associated with an actual physical issue, such as bearing damage or a stretched chain. I can't understand how so many people can be so obsessed about engine noise, and yet not a single individual is willing to take the plunge to get the answer by disassembling and inspecting the engine internals.

Did you read what weedhopr reported on another thread that you posted on? If you've been hearing this noise for 3+ years, it's highly unlikely to be a 'knock', because the engine would have failed a long time ago. It's almost certainly one of the 'ticking' noises, and there's a good chance it's benign just like what weedhopr's experience has been.

But I suspect that you'll continue to chase after the noise, because people are going to do what they do. And sure, go ahead and join that class action suit, if you think they're going to be able to do something for you.

 

[alexthefifth]

...and yet not a single individual is willing to take the plunge to get the answer by disassembling and inspecting the engine internals...

Why do you make such generalized statements? Are you personally being attacked? What's in it for you? You literary have not bothered to even read the facebook group. This the process that people have been following:

1. Perform an internal endoscope of the engine (1 hour of labour at the dealer at the expense of Kia corporate)
2. If scope results show scratched pistons/cylinders (which the knocking sound is an early indicator of) then Kia corporate pays for engine replacement (often even if car is out of warranty) as engine wear will only get worse and failure is only a matter of time

This is not a simple minor repair, it's literary as big as it gets. It takes weeks and is a massive inconvenience, and lots of people have gone through it. I don't know why you dismiss it so casually.

In my particular case, yes the knocking sound started 3+ years ago. And I took it to several mechanics over that time, trying to investigate the cause. I have the receipts to prove it. They've replaced various belts and made adjustments, lubricating things etc but there was never a permanent fix. Our car probably hasn't had more serious problems yet (i.e. a blown engine) because we only drive about ~10k per year. But now I know that my case is *extremely* typical of how the defect manifests itself. And there's a 2 class action lawsuits that are *exactly* for this issue. I'm not familiar with weedhopr's experience, but every day there's more and more people posting about this issue, and weedhopr's experience seems more and more like a one-off anecdote.

 

[kiaguy007]

.... What's in it for you? ....

Well, I own a Forte too, and mine is out of warranty, so obviously I would be overjoyed to see a recall announced for the Theta MPI.

....
This the process that people have been following:

1. Perform an internal endoscope of the engine (1 hour of labour at the dealer at the expense of Kia corporate)
2. If scope results show scratched pistons/cylinders (which the knocking sound is an early indicator of) then Kia corporate pays for engine replacement (often even if car is out of warranty) as engine wear will only get worse and failure is only a matter of time
.....

I spend lots of time combing the Kia and Hyundai forums, looking for anything related to Theta engine issues, and I've never read even one account of the above activity on any forum. Never any account of an engine being replaced by Kia (or Hyundai) based on an endo exam, and never a Theta MPI engine replaced out-of-warranty on Kia's dime. I'm not saying it can't be happening, just that I don't understand why this Canadian Facebook group is the only place this activity is being reported.

And I'll also add that these FB links have been posted here previously by other individuals multiple times. In each case, I've tried to have a conversation with those posters, but no one has ever been interested in doing so. To say I'm suspicious of this FB group would be an understatement.

.... And there's a 2 class action lawsuits that are *exactly* for this issue. ....

If a Forte engine lawsuit spans years 2010-2015, then this will automatically include 3 different engine families (Theta, Gamma, and Nu). Trying to go after 3 different engines in the same lawsuit is IMO idiotic.

I'm not saying there are no Theta MPI engine issues. I've participated in multiple credible conversations with owners who have had blown engines, so there have definitely been some issues reported. Enough to make me more than a bit concerned, however not nearly enough to be even close to the level of the well known Theta GDI/Turbo nightmare. And unfortunately so far not enough to push Kia/Hyundai into recalling the MPI.

I'll concede it's possible that I'm wrong and that the information on the Canadian Facebook group is completely on the level. If so, great because that would increase the chances that the automakers will ultimately be forced to recall the MPI, and I would be thrilled if that happens. But I'm not going to continue to argue with you about this group, because I don't waste my time going back and forth about stuff like that. I'll keep an open mind about it, just as I do with everything else related to these Theta engine issues.

So good luck on resolving your engine noise, and I hope it works out well for you.

 

[joester]

I'll throw this in...
I took mine to the dealer for the "official" diagnosis. They had 3 currently waiting the 2 month wait for an engine block, mine was diagnosed with the same issue... Piston slap. Very discernable noise from what the manager told me. 10 seconds of hearing it start up and he was more than willing to charge me the $6500 for a replacement engine, confident in his diagnosis.

I should also add they had a total of 22 Optimas, Sportages, and Sorentos waiting for engines too... but those were covered by the recall.

 

[alexthefifth]

Yep, this is a good example of how Kia/Hyundai is getting away with it: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/car-giants-delay-recall-on-engine-known-to-fail-1.5044866

The comments are pretty eye-opening. Countless of similar experiences from Canadian Kia owners. Some of the comments are from Forte owners. Like this guy: http://www.theramblinman.ca/2018/04/02/kia-forte-engine-failure-tick-tock/


Kia is being extremely unethical. They deny deny deny. But the more they are confronted, the bigger their list of recalled vehicle keeps growing. And growing. And growing. And growing.

 

[joester]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmQ6KeNu-RE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ0BIcc2lD8

 

[Walpole5]

I'm a little confused about all the talk regarding engine failures. When I Google "Kia Engine Failures" I get information on the recalls regarding fires, but nothing regarding piston slap or engine abnormal wear issues. There's a Facebook page sponsored by a law firm, that seems pretty suspicious. The recall for engine failures in the Sonata was for the GDI engine in 2011-12 that wasn't used in the Forte. Is this problem really widespread or are there 3 or 4 people on the forum with failed engines that are commanding a lot of attention? I know quite a few people with Kias and Hyundais and all have been very reliable as mine have been also. Engine failures are no fun - I had a BMW 5 series with a blown head gasket at 100k miles - but they do happen. I never considered getting BMW to pay for the repair, even though their craptaculor cooling system caused it. I bought a remanufactured head and a new gasket and put them on. A 9 year old car that develops an engine problem is not that unusual and I would not look to the manufacturer to cover the problem.

 

[kiaguy007]

I'm a little confused about all the talk regarding engine failures. When I Google "Kia Engine Failures" I get information on the recalls regarding fires, but nothing regarding piston slap or engine abnormal wear issues. ....

Although it probably won't be found in a regular search, Kia has publicly admitted to replacing 70K Theta GDI/Turbo engines, across all models equipped with those engines. IMO, the actual number is almost certainly higher than what Kia admits to, and is definitely increasing over time as these engines continue to fail.

Kia/Hyundai also has developed a product improvement campaign for all Theta GDI/Turbos (through 2019 models), consisting of computer code which is designed use the knock sensor to detect early engine failure noise. In doing so, the automakers have made a defacto admission that the Theta engine problems have still not yet been resolved. No one retroactively adds failure detection unless they believe there is a reasonable chance of failure.

Forte engines are of course not a part of any of the above, giving that Theta GDI/Turbos were not used in our vehicles. The first gen Forte is an MPI Theta, which shares some parts (notably the block) with it's GDI/Trubo cousins. How the MPI might be affected by whatever causes the GDI/Turbp failures is anyone's guess. Kia has released no information about Forte engine failures, an so no one outside of the automaker's inner circle knows how many have actually failed. The Canadian Forte Facebook group is calling the engine problem systemic, with a large percentage of Canadian Forte engines already failed, or on the verge of failure. I've found no other source, aside from that FB group, which supports a high failure percentage of Forte engines. But although I have lots of doubts about what this FB group says, I also can't provide any proof that their story is incorrect. So it becomes a matter of waiting for something from a credible source, which accurately describes the Forte engine failure percentage (if that ever does in fact occur).

The individual reports and/or videos which have been posted say nothing about the total number of engines that have failed, regardless of how vocal and upset they understandably might be.

 

[joester]

Is this problem really widespread or are there 3 or 4 people on the forum with failed engines that are commanding a lot of attention?

The Kia dealer local to me had 3 Fortes waiting for engines. Mine would be the 4th if I decide to sink $6500 into mine. There is currently a 2 month wait for the short block and complete new engines are simply not available. As mentioned above, sensors were added and a special code.
My wife and I spoke at length with the salesman who sold us the car tonight. He had spoken with several people and agreed that it seems Kia (Hyundai) has a serious issue with engine design and for whatever reason has not resolved it.
At this point it seems they are hoping the issues will not increase to where they will be forced to field another recall.

 

[alexthefifth]

I think part of the problem is the lack of transparency on behalf of Kia/Hyundai. Take this article for example, which has elements of what kiaguy007 was talking about:
https://www.boston.com/cars/car-news/2019/01/19/hyundai-kia-recall-vehicles-due-to-increased-fire-risk

Hyundai and Kia are moving ahead with a recall of about 168,000 vehicles to fix a fuel pipe problem that can cause engine fires
...
In addition to the recall, each automaker says it will do a “product improvement campaign” covering a total of 3.7 million vehicles to install software that will alert drivers of possible engine failures and send the cars into a reduced-speed “limp” mode if problems are detected.

So it sounds like they're making the whole situation pretty convoluted by saying the recall is regarding fuel pipes, but at the same time time installing software to detect engine failures (not necessarily relating to the fuel pipes).

And the ofcourse there's signs that Kia/Hyundai are trying to downplay how many cars are affected and keep trying to recall only the bare minimum that they can get away with:
https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-hyundai-kia-fires-20181012-story.html

Safety group wants Hyundai and Kia to recall 2.9 million vehicles
...
Kia said at the time of the 2015 recall that its 2.4-liter and 2-liter “Theta II” engines that were the same design as Hyundai's were not recalled then because they didn't have the same issue.

Then both companies issued more recalls 18 months later for the same problem, including models the automakers originally said weren't affected, investigators wrote in documents posted on the agency's website.

 

[alexthefifth]

from https://www.ocregister.com/2019/02/28/sudden-fires-in-kias-hyundais-require-congressional-intervention-consumer-group-says/

Kia and Hyundai have done several recalls since 2015 — but not widely enough — and they haven’t yet fixed the problems, Levine said.

In September 2015, Hyundai recalled 470,000 Sonatas, model years 2011 and 2012, to address catastrophic engine failure concerns.
In March 2017, Hyundai and Kia added 1.1 million vehicles in two recalls, also over catastrophic engine failure concerns. The defect caused debris to spew around the engine block, resulting in prematurely worn bearings, engine seizures or thrown rods, according to documents. Fire and smoke were not mentioned.
Fires, however, continued.

On Dec. 19, Kia submitted paperwork to NHTSA recalling 68,000 vehicles due to fire risk — but that was a re-recall, representing only 4 percent of the vehicles the Center for Auto Safety said needed attention. It focused exclusively on the vehicles that were recalled in 2017 for the engine debris issue, and that had the engine replaced (the 2011-2014 Optima, 2012-2014 Sorento and 2011-2013 Sportage). On Jan. 11, Kia announced the limited recall to the public, along with a “product improvement campaign” for more than 1.6 million other vehicles (2011-2018 Optima, 2012-2018 Sorento, and 2011-2018 Sportage).
On Dec. 28, Hyundai notified NHTSA it would recall 100,000 vehicles for essentially the same reasons (2013-2014 Santa Fe and 2011-2014 Sonata). It represented just 8 percent of the vehicles the center said needed recalling. Hyundai also announced the recall publicly on Jan. 11.

...

The “public improvement campaigns” involve a software update and installation of a sensor to detect engine knocking — often a precursor to the spewing debris that has led to fires, the center said. If that sensor detects knocking, it shifts the vehicle into “Limp Home Mode,” which immediately reduces speed and revolutions per minute.

“This ‘product improvement campaign’ is not a recall in name or substance,” the center said in its letter to Congress. “Most importantly, it does not attempt to address the problem of these vehicles. … All it does is place a sensor in vehicles that are in danger of catching on fire and then put them back on the road in the hopes that by having the vehicle ‘Limp Home’ it will not catch on fire.”

 

[alexthefifth]

A 9 year old car that develops an engine problem is not that unusual and I would not look to the manufacturer to cover the problem.

Hyundai thinks otherwise:

from https://www.ocregister.com/2019/02/28/sudden-fires-in-kias-hyundais-require-congressional-intervention-consumer-group-says/
Also, as part of its product improvement campaign, Hyundai extended the warranty to 10 years and 120,000 miles (up from 100,000 miles) for original and subsequent owners of 2011-2018 Sonatas, 2013-2018 Santa Fe Sports and 2014-2015 and 2018 Tucsons for engine repairs needed because of excessive connecting rod bearing damage. There also is a special customer service line for noncollision fires at 855-671-3059.

It's too bad that we're conditioned to think it's "not unusual" for my car to die at 9 years of age/117,000 kilometers, while Hondas and Toyotas are lasting 300-400,000 kilometers ( https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/03/14/cars-that-can-last-for-250000-miles/#424a3c11323e ).

 

[joester]

My personal gripe is that the vehicle was sold with the claim that I should be able to get 300K miles out of it with regular maintenance and care.
I was on that path but the engine is expiring right after the warranty did. If the engine had made close to 200K before this I would not argue. I would have accepted it and moved on, probably with a new Kia.
But adding knock sensors that will force limp mode and not fixing the problem really bothers me. A "new" engine (short block and all the rest from my engine) will only have a 3/36 warranty so I'll expect maybe another 100K out of the car if I'm lucky.

From what I'm seeing, nothing regarding the pistons, rings, connecting rods, oil pump or bearings is being changed. In fact the quote I have from the dealer is for a remanufactured block. So if I get one of those I can assume the block died on someone else and they patched it...?

 

[Walpole5]

Who made the claim that the car would go 300k miles? That's a lot of miles for any car. Most cars I know of are pretty clapped out by 200k miles. Besides my BMW, I had a new RX8 in which the engine started to fail at 18k miles - a quart of oil every 400 miles and down on power. I decided to sell it instead of dealing with Mazda rebuilding the engine. Mazda did admit the engine was crap, but they had to since all the engines were dying and it was well publicized. I don't think Kia has anywhere near this kind of issue, but it sucks that your car has problems. Have you considered trading it in on another car and let someone else worry about it?

 

[PLP]

Guys, you keep bashing about it and no resolution yet.


I understand your concern, but my question is - Is it a problem for long run?


I had 2009 Elantra that developed similar knock at idle. Hard to say higher speeds due to other noises... but I had it for 30k miles (noise started at about 40k), I drove over 20k with it. Now, a friend of mine, still drives it at around 90k miles with great fuel economy and plenty of power (just like when I had it at 20k mark).
While I 100% agree the noise is annoying, bothersome, is it actually destructive? I saw some videos showing slapping piston, but that was an extreme case.


From what I gathered from Hyundai forums, 2.0 NA are pretty robust and if taken care of provide long happy life.

 

[alexthefifth]

I understand your concern, but my question is - Is it a problem for long run?

One of the articles I posted earlier says that the knocking sound is a precursor to engine fires. So is it a problem? Well, it appears to be:
from https://www.fox4now.com/news/national/study-certain-kia-and-hyundai-engines-more-likely-to-catch-fire

An alarming new study found certain engines in Kia and Hyundai vehicles are more likely to catch fire than any other vehicles on the road, according to a report by Scripps affiliate WFTS-TV in Tampa.
...
“There are probably several million vehicles between the two manufactures Kia and Hyundai that remain not at a recall status that remain potentially a fire risk,” said Levine.

Insurance claim records show more Kia and Hyundai vehicles are catching fire than have been reported to government regulators.

Those records show more than 2,700 fires in just five models alone – 2011 to 15 Kia Optima, 2011 to 14 Hyundai Sonata, 2011 to 15 Kia Sorento, 2011 to 12 Hyundai Santa Fe and 2013 to 14 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport.

 

[PLP]

2700 fires.
What does the number mean? This is like saying Tesla is dangerous car because it catches fire.


So if 2700 fires is across 10'000'000 cars that means that 0.027% of them experienced fire. The cause of it - it is not specified. Was it accident related?


And some journalist saying that the knock could be fire precursor? Based on what tests?




Folks, I get there might be something happening, but lets be realistic and try to actually understand the report.
KIA/Hyundai are two very popular makes. There are millions of cars on the road. Not all fires are caused by spontaneous ignition in the engine. Not to mention lack of maintenance and wisdom. A car that has been parked for a while and squirrels packed tons of leaves under the hood is on the edge of a disaster...
I am sorry, but majority of cars I see in the service when I go for an oil change, look terrible. Trashed inside. I do not expect any better maintenance in the engine bay...


I am not saying some cars might have problems. They might.
Yet, be careful before jumping to a conclusion.

 

[weedhopr]

Who made the claim that the car would go 300k miles? That's a lot of miles for any car. Most cars I know of are pretty clapped out by 200k miles. Besides my BMW, I had a new RX8 in which the engine started to fail at 18k miles - a quart of oil every 400 miles and down on power. I decided to sell it instead of dealing with Mazda rebuilding the engine. Mazda did admit the engine was crap, but they had to since all the engines were dying and it was well publicized. I don't think Kia has anywhere near this kind of issue, but it sucks that your car has problems. Have you considered trading it in on another car and let someone else worry about it?

My 2010 Forte EX is still going strong, currently just over 362,000 miles. I bought it in 2011 with 42,000 miles. Drive daily to commute to and from work, 70 miles each way. Also 3 trips across the country for vacations. Nothing but routine maintenance, except for a new battery at 312,000 miles, and alternator at 317,000 miles. Always used 5W20 Mobil 1 oil, changed every 7000 miles. Still average 34 mpg, mostly highway. 2 qts oil between changes.